Wingfoiling Progression

General discussions about wingfoiling: equipment, tips, problems, where to go, where you should have been, pump safety.
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Re: More wingfoiling questions

Post by winddoctor »

Keith, to answer some of your questions:

"And why did Quattro call it a "drifter"....which brings up my question re schlogging on a wing. If I schlog on my Fanatic Blast Foil windsurf board, cause it's 145L and the foil acts like a huge fin, it's easy to bury the windward rail and get back upwind to where I started, in non-planing conditions. You can even hook in to save your arms."

"Drifter" as in flagging wing out and drifting/surfing the swell downwind.


"Question re getting back home when underpowered on wing foils...I assume its hard.

With wings....I'm assuming they don't go upwind unless you are at least powered a bit, and/or up on the foil? How do you get back home? Lay down and prone paddle? Should I bring a paddle!? "

You can slog it back in upwind like a windsurfer no prob, just not quite as effectively with the short waterline. I was slogging making upwind progress (barely) on my 5'3", 77L board the other day, but it's much easier on a 6'4", 115L board. You rake the wing back a bit over the tail to go upwind and rail the board as if you're trying to tack on a windsurfer. You can always lie down and prone paddle easily.

"Or just wait for the boat, or do downwinders at first...eg get dropped to launch at Ford Cove on Hornby and land downwind at the ferry spit for pick up?"

Yes, could work well.

You'll quickly figure out that wingsurfing is a lot like windsurfing and most techniques cross over. You'll be shocked at how little wind you'll fly a 2400 foil in even with a 5M wing.


[/b]
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More wingfoiling research

Post by KC7777 »

superdave wrote:
Hey Keith, get into winging. I've got the Armstrong 6'6" (100kg wet) and 3.5 m and 4.5 m A-Wings so thought I'd chime in. I wanted a big stable board that could be used for winging/SUP foil. The 6'6" is strong and light. The carbon is high quality and the bottom and rails are extremely ding resistant for a board of its weight. The top of the board outside the deck pad is much softer (inegra glass I think) and will end up with shallow dents from face plants. I totally believe in the shape of the 6'6" - it just works so well off foil and on. I can't believe how many times I've touched down on the tops of swells when pumping and just bounced off the ocean. Same for the rails, tapped the surface so many times on jibes in lighter wind and the board just doesn't stick to the water. I think it's a light wind weapon...to be determined in the coming months!

Wing size/brand is a tough one and I have pretty limited experience with different brands (Ozone V1 4 m was my first wing). Increased size and weight are not good attributes (ALUULA anyone?). I expect you might find the 5.5 m Armstrong to be a bit big and heavy (especially for learning), but possibly necessary to go into the 7 knot range. A smaller wing will be much easier to pump, so the low end performance gap narrows. The smaller wing will also be easier to handle through transitions, which will reduce crashes and re-starts. There is probably only a 2-3 knots improvement in low end with each size of the A-Wing and each size up is noticeably heavier. I would lean towards a 4.5 m A-Wing for your weight, it's a very powerful wing. I know the channel at Hornby and I expect I could get going on my 3.5 m most days thanks to my big board...and if I couldn't at least I could float back to the beach.

I don't have Armstrong foils but the 2400 is a big foil with some drag for sure, especially the V1. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pump up on the HS1850 in less wind once you have your technique dialed. Definitely go 85 cm mast.
Thanks superdave and windoc!

Updates on my gear research....watched a ton of Armstrong Youtubes and spent a while on the phone with Bruno from 2-Rad.

Wings: Armstrong A-Wings are pretty grunty...so at my weight (165 lbs/75kg) a 4.5M A-Wing may be enough...especially if combined with a big foil.

Bruno was also thinking that the power generated by an Armstrong CF2400cm foil + 4.5M A-Wing, could be pretty similar to power from the HS1850 foil + 5.5M A-wing.

And at at my height (5'7") ....the 5.5M wing may be big/catch the tips when learning?

The smaller wing + big front foil combo is similar to my 4.8M/115L Fanatic Freewave tri set up in windsurfing, that I used at ton at the Nat in <20. I was efficient at that type of small sail/big board combo windsurfing, so I'm thinking I should be wing foiling too. I know I gotta get away from comparing winging to windsurfing. But I do think I'd prefer to pump a smaller wing for power....vs being pulled by a huge, heavy wing.

He also said if I do buy the CF2400cm foil....I should get ready to buy an HS1850 foil asap as I will want that one pretty quick. The CF2400 is great for learning, but is slow/draggier. But the CF2400 could be good for sup surfing in tiny tiny waves.....thinking Tribune Bay mushy 1' - 2' footers? That could make this board really useful!

Mast length: seems to make sense to go 85cm....unless sup surfing at Tribune (then 72cm).

Fuselage: seems 70cm for Winging and 60cm for SUP surfing? Could also go 60cm for Winging.

Tail wing: HS232 is turnier (vs CF300), but prolly not a big difference with either. The front wing makes way more difference. Hs232 better for surfing.

Boards: OK....I'm learning here it's not about the board. It's about the foil under you. Was looking at really big boards...eg 130L.... but am now thinking more my 75 kg + 30-40 max for learning.... so 105L-115L, even for light winds. Better all around size for re-sale. hahaha

The Quatro Wing Drifter 115L really interests me. Less $ than the Armstrong. But you have to buy a bag, though it comes with foot-straps. Board availability may be an issue this year so all this research may be a year too early.

Thanks,

Keith
Last edited by KC7777 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by winddoctor »

Tails make a HUGE difference in foil behaviour. 300 will be better for low end and stability. The 232 tail feels smaller and is much more lively. TC 60 fuse will offer more performance than 70 for winging in long run but is less stable. I'd go with the 60 since fuses are $$$ and you'll want the 60 anyway at some point. Seems most guys use a 60 for winging and a 70 for wind foiling. The Armstrong 4.5 does have a huge amount of grunt! The 5.5 would be like a diesel truck for pull...
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Post by AJSpencer »

Speaking of tails, my 145L Dialer has a square board tail, big floatation around the foil, and I don't feel like I can pump the foil because of it. So narrower tail or lower volume maybe essential for lighter wind so you can get the foil pumping as well.
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Post by more force 4 »

Keith I thought I wouldn't get any use for the 145 Dialer I just bought outside desperation sessions less than 14 knots or so on RBG. I really wanted the foil. But although I've only had a couple of sessions, I'm finding I really like the board itself for a few reasons. Its so much more stable off the foil than my also-big Naish 120 that I am finding I fall in less (e.g., slog tacks near 100% instead of +-50%) and therefore have more energy to sail longer/pump more etc. Have to work on pumping the board, but a few weight transfers to the back foot seems to have it up and foiling at least as early as my maybe ham-fisted attempts at full leg pumps when there just isn't quite enough wind (according to Tweezer). But a really big advantage is the width of the board. On the Naish, I can never seem to sheet in enough to go properly close-hauled and climb as much upwind as I feel like I should be able to. When I look at the boom its not in all the way but I can't seem to pull any more, it always feels like I need shorter harness lines. The Slingshot I can wrap my heels over the edge and easily sheet in to mid-line and really power upwind.
Last edited by more force 4 on Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by grantmac »

AJSpencer wrote:Speaking of tails, my 145L Dialer has a square board tail, big floatation around the foil, and I don't feel like I can pump the foil because of it. So narrower tail or lower volume maybe essential for lighter wind so you can get the foil pumping as well.
Maybe for winging, definitely not for windfoiling.
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Post by AJSpencer »

Ya, nice to be able to get the back foot on the rail for windfoiling. But you don’t seem to have the same leverage requirement there with winGfoiling.
Sorry thought you were talking about winging.
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Post by UnusuallyLargeRobin »

Swell rides! This is what it's all about at Ross B! For all you winger swell riding wannabes (myself included &#128516;)

https://magazine.wingsurfworld.com/issu ... h-brandon/
Me: 85kg(187lbs)
FoilBoards: Fanatic 5'0 SkyWing(75lt); 6'6 BP(116lt); WindSurf: Tabou Pocket Wave (80lt)
Wings: Naish S25 5.3m, 3.6m; Sails: NP Combats
Foils: Axis 1000(1310cm2)/370 rear/short fuse/90cm mast; NP GlideSurf L(1486cm2); BP L(1750cm2)
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Post by ootwest »

I'm 78kg and got the 115L Quattro Wingdrifter from DirtyMermaid in Ucluelet. Really liking it, and quite stable with a giant Moses 1100 foil underneath. Tried SUP paddling, and the 5'8" length definitely makes going straight hard. Haven't tried catching a wave yet though; was trying for flat water pumping.
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Post by AJSpencer »

Light-wind wingfoiling: https://youtu.be/MCE-sZzvlJE
Light rider, big foil, small board, yuge wing, wing/foil combo pump, skillz.
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Post by AJSpencer »

more light-wind wingfoil: https://youtu.be/Llv2cAaaXyE
He mentions because the lulls are so low (~3 knots), kitefoiling wasn’t possible. But winging was — 3-11 knots. I’m sure some help from
the swell.
Cool to see whats
possible, even though I may never get to that level.
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pumping

Post by Windjunky »

AJ i found the shorter fuselage made a huge difference for pumping not sure if your using windsurf fuselage with wing. Glad I didn't get the 7M the 6M in that first video looks huge.
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Post by AJSpencer »

All I have is the long fuselage I think. Eventually I’ll graduate myself to (and spend money on) a wing/pump specific board and foil setup, maybe next year. For now my gear is like driving a Cadillac. But loads of fun in 15+ so in no rush to spend a bunch more $$$$ yet.
Love wind and wing foiling!! Maybe Westerlies returning next week... then SE’s.
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Post by winddoctor »

Some amazing progressive riding by Johnny Heineken (Blue Ozone) and others under the Golden Gate. The commentator does a voice over discussing the positive vibe of wing foiling (and all forms of foiling) and its inclusivity. I love the term "compersion"; the feeling of joy one has experiencing another's joy, such as in witnessing a toddler's (or other wind-junkies') joy and feeling joy in response.

Even after an epic paddle following a hugely frustrating inability to get up on my sinking, small board in light air at RB yesterday, I eventually realized that I was super fortunate and grateful to have the ability to be out enjoying the ocean. The long paddle in became more of a meditation once I relaxed into a rhythm and the previous intense frustration evaporated completely.

We have a great community here in all of the wind and foil sports and I'm still so stoked to be part of it this many years in. &#128591;

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBv3ezIwNXc[/i]
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Post by bwd »

Ya I love you guys. BTW I watched that video twice but did not see any joyful foiling toddlers.
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