Wingfoiling Progression

General discussions about wingfoiling: equipment, tips, problems, where to go, where you should have been, pump safety.
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Lateriser
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How much does weight of the gear matter?

Post by Lateriser »

whats the experience of the pro guys? There is not much info out there.
Some wing foilers were saying to me - weight doesn't matter , if you up flying .
For me thinking basic physics , gravity is what keeps us down floating .
If you have less gear weight , you need less wind, less wing size, less speed - am i right? is this the reason why everybody goes with $$$$ carbon ?
I lifted some other foils including board at ross bay - its the weight of my front foil wing , lol
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Post by nanmoo »

I think people mostly go with carbon for two primary reasons aside from obvious performance gains of it being lighter/stiffer:

1. It's a hell of a lot lighter to haul to the beach.
2. It's got way less inertia so if it mucks you it hopefully won't be as bad.

Having carried a few aluminum foils to the beach then kicked them underwater they are not my friends.
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gear weight

Post by Bobson »

My 2 cents worth. At 220lbs, I could lose 5lbs and save myself $1000 bucks not to buy carbon. "I think" the weight difference isn't all it's made up to be. "I think" the weight difference between aluminum and carbon is a 1% difference in performance and "getting it up earlier" (no offense). If I have to use .5 meter larger sail or 100cm2 more foil then so be it although I would like to lose 5lbs. :)
Once I'm flying, and really it's just getting enough forward speed to start flying, there is very little weight of rig, I usually go at least 1/2 my session without hooking in to the harness, once flying weight/size isn't a big deal.
One last "I think" is that the big front wing makes the biggest difference I've felt. Bigger sails/smaller boards etc. are much smaller differences than that big front wing, oh ya, and longer fuselage helps steady things out. The 115cm fuselage makes the ride like driving a Cadillac instead of riding a bike. So little effort and less need to continually adjust everything, just like putting it on cruise control. I'm sure some people like the continual adjustments and thrill and I do 'sometimes' as well but when I"m able to put it on cruise control and go for long reaches 3 feet above the water like a bird without having to flap my wings it's pure bliss..... definitely magic carpet ride.
I probably went a little off topic here but my advice is worry less about weight and more about front wing size and fuselage length to increase flight time and ease of use.
Again, just ramblings of an addicted to foiling Dood.
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Post by tempy »

When you guys ditch your Slingshot Alu foil systems - give me a call. I am always looking to pick up spare parts.

I like the simplicity and versatility of it - I can use the same system for windfoil and kitefoil.

And I don't jump - apparently the alu masts will bend.
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Post by monicavi »

Depends on the brand. My lift and moses foils are under 7lbs complete.

There's weight, and there's swing weight. Carbon masts taper so the weight is closer to your foot than the foil a meter away.

The real reason for carbon is shape and taper. They can make far more efficient carbon shapes with that taper down quite a bit at the fuselage. So when you're high up on the foil there's less drag.

Do either of these things matter for a beginner? Nope. You're going 10mph, and the extra weight of an aluminum setup will actually make the board much easier to stand on in the beginning.

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Post by grantmac »

Foil weight isn't super important except for carrying it.

But board and rig weight definitely do, as does foil design.
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Post by Lateriser »

Thanks everyone for all input, very interesting. I have built up endurance with caring my " led" gear up wind at the beach, but the walks are getting shorter lately.
After reading all posts I was inspired to actually put my stuff on a scale. 7.3kg for the foil with mast and mounting plate. 6"11 board is 9kg. This feels like a old " Fiesta Wagon". And with this mass I might cut through kelp without vibration, lol.
I still think there must be a difference between your 7lbs foil ( monicavi) and my 16lbs foil.
Thanks Bobson, Yes noticed a big difference with my fuselage extension ( 85 cm) now, way better control
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Post by monicavi »

Once you get to a certain level size matters, weight matters, shape matters, foil section matters...

Most of the guys who don't think weight matters seem to be coming from a windsurfing background. Kite foilers on the other hand are always trying to ride the smallest board and lightest foil. I have picked up custom carbon kitefoil race boards and the entire setup, a one piece board with glassed on mast and foil weighs under 10lbs.

Weight can be your friend. Kai Lenny weighs his Nazare tow boards in one video and I think they're around 20lbs. Dave Kalama likes his big swell downwind foilboards closer to 15lbs because they're more stable when overpowered in huge swell. But top freeride wing/sup and prone foilers are almost all going for the lightest smallest boards they can ride without breaking.

I just finished a full carbon, pvc sandwich deck 93L (which is my weight is a wetsuit) board that came in at just over 11lbs and paired with my light moses foil it the turns feel so much free. And I'm now figuring out how to create lift through turns instead of pumping. It also releases from the water with far less effort to the point where I was able to ride a 4.2m wing in 7kn gusting to 10kn the other at San Pariel after everybody else when home because the wind died. I could not have gotten off the water on a heavier rig.

It's essentially all about reaction time of the rig. The lighter the rig, board and foil, the more agile for cutback turns, high speed tacks, freestyle tricks, pumping and jumping.

If you're still at the walk of pride stage, then foil weight is your friend on the water as it will smooth out all those beginner mistakes. Board weight will also slow everything down, but the heaver the nose of the board, and the further the distance from the foil to the nose, the more then board is trying to drop back down onto the water. So you need to compensate by moving your foil further forward, riding a larger front wing or shimming your stabilizer to create more front foot pressure. The latter two will create more drag so you'll need a bigger hand kite to compensate for that.

If you're looking for more information about weight, construction, technique then listen to the progression project, and the wingfoil experience podcast. Particularly anything Gunnar Biniasch and Dave Kalama, both for their experience and the fact that they're full grown middle age men. It's pointless to take advice from 140lb teenage pro riders. They can get away with murder on a foil.
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Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by Lateriser »

hi monicavi, thanks for your detailed post and kind words ( walk of pride :lol: )
One idea really stood out for me "It's essentially all about reaction time of the rig"
This makes totally sense. The heavier and sluggish the rig is - gives me longer reaction time . So in this meaning "mass" in this case is my friend.
Very informative your post. thanks again. This beginner stage ( probably everybody went through this cole mine ) is brutal lol, stubbornness is the solution success ](*,)
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Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by ootwest »

FWIW: had a great learning session (my ~5th session) yesterday. Key points that seemed to be helping get first few flights:
- Bend knees rather than trying to stand straight up, or leaning out like my windsurfing muscle memory trying to do
- Mast location depends on boards and foil. 5'8" Quatro WingDrifter board + 1100 MOSES foil; initially put the mast in mid to forward position in the foil box. Getting bucked a lot as come out on foil and not able to put enough front foot pressure on. Shifting feet forward works while flying, but buying noise while non-foiling. Next time will move mast toward back of box, to get feet in same place foiling & non-foiling
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Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by monicavi »

Yes, Moses 1100 needs to be all the way back in a Quatro. Unless you have the new 700HS fuselage. I always use straps, and find the center of my front foot to the center of my mast needs to be about 22" in light winds ad 24" in high winds or swell with the old 710 (M6). For the Moses 950 I even needed to add a 0.5 degree sabfoil shim backwards to flatten out the tail, that reduced the front foot pressure. But I didn't like the shim on my 1100 with the 483 tail.

For takeoff move your back foot closer to the front, maybe just ahead of mast, then step back so you are more or standing on the mast plate.
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Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by MtnarG »

monicavi wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:32 pm Yes, Moses 1100 needs to be all the way back in a Quatro. Unless you have the new 700HS fuselage. I always use straps, and find the center of my front foot to the center of my mast needs to be about 22" in light winds ad 24" in high winds or swell with the old 710 (M6). For the Moses 950 I even needed to add a 0.5 degree sabfoil shim backwards to flatten out the tail, that reduced the front foot pressure. But I didn't like the shim on my 1100 with the 483 tail.
I just ordered:

Moses KIT M82 - W1100 - S483 - F700-HS
Quatro 5’6” (105 ltr)
WASP V2 5m

They should all be here next week.

Any suggestions on mast placement other than starting in the middle?

Any suggestions on best place to practice around Victoria now that the Kelp and seaweed are quite bad (without driving all the way to Nitinaht)?

I kite foil and have had a couple of rides wing foiling on other people’s gear.

Cheers, Grant
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Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by nanmoo »

Outside Esquimalt lagoon is kelp free but the wind is usually gusty. I like it though. It's definitely more sketchy for kiting than for Wing or Windsurf. Look for SW days for better wind, WSW for not as great and W for gusty AF.
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Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by monicavi »

With the new HS700 fuse you probably want to be about 3-4cm from the back, so yeah, about middle. If it's really light (10 kn), then all the way forward. But it really all depends on where you want to put your front foot. And the conditions for the day, swell etc.

With the 5m and 1100 you'll feel fully powered up around 20kn. You might want to start looking for a 3m for the winter. The 1100 is great for learning, you'll be able to stay on foil at almost a dead stop, which is forgiving in jibes, but still go pretty fast. I've matched a lift 170HA on the 1100, which is twice the area.
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Re: Wingfoiling Progression

Post by Tsawwassen »

I started using footstraps and find it challenging to keep my foil from breaching. I now have to use way more from foot pressure and a 1.5 degree shim. I'm using the Moses 790 (1550sqcm) and have it all the way back and my footstraps for both front and back are in the most forward positions. It feels like the footstrap positions on the board don't go far enough forward or I need a smaller front wing. The wind has been light the last few days and I had a hard time getting the foil flying at times and then once up it feels like I'm over powered. Any tips? I really like using the straps, some moments it feels super dialled in, even started getting my first few jumps, but most of the time it just doesn't feel right, like a constant struggle to keep it under control.
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