juandesooka wrote:L
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I kind of work with the default assumption that until I know the skill level or intentions of the person coming at me, I will assume they have ROW and I'll try to squeeze in around them as best I can. I also try to adopt the boating rule of "show your intention early and stick to it, so they can respond in kind". As opposed to that silly dance of each adjusting back and forth until you crash in the middle.

Trouble is, Juande, that the silly dance is exactly what happens when both sides follow your first way of dealing with a potential collision (I'll keep clear no matter where I am). People need to know the ROW rules and like you say about boating rules (which ARE exactly the rules applied to kiters and windsurfers), the person with the RoW is OBLIGATED to hold their course, and let the 'burdened' (i.e., without the RoW) sailor/kiter/vessel make the avoidance. I nearly crashed at Nitinat a couple of weekends ago when someone that clearly didn't know the rules had RoW and changed course to avoid me as I was changing course to avoid him - the 'silly dance'. Of course, if you are in this situation and the other party isn't following the rules, you still have to do everything possible to avoid a collision. It the oncoming rig stays on the same bearing relative to you when you've changed course, YOU WILL HIT if one of you doesn't do something.

Even experienced kiters and windsurfers can mess up on collision courses, it goes with high, varying speeds and courses. I had another near miss at the Nat when I was the burdened (port tack) sailor, I noted way off that a sailor on starboard was on a collision course. I was trying to stay upwind and tried to pinch above him. I went up, and I thought he'd changed course (instead of holding it). We started the 'dance' where I pinched even higher and I thought he'd changed again. He blasted past just behind me as I was almost stopped with us both yelling. On the beach after he said he had right-of-way and I hadn't yielded; I said I thought he'd altered course to go more upwind himself, but he was adamant that he hadn't. What must of happened is that I slowed when I pinched up, and that put us back on a collision course. To me, it looked like he'd intentionally changed course (bastard!) when he hadn't. My bad! I should have fallen off and made my intention to go below him early and clear, after my initial change of course upwind didn't have the right effect. He happened to be a windsurfer but this would be even more likely to happen with a kite and a ws, as we like to stay away from those lines! Anyway, keep this in mind if you are kiting on starboard and a port WS doesn't seem to be keeping clear.

"To allow the stand-on vessel to pass ahead, one:

stops the vessel by heaving-to (this is a very useful skill to practice - you may wish just to pop below to consult the chart, or to put the kettle on)."

See, you can have a cup of tea in the middle of Nitinat!

If I am on Starboard with my kite and you are on Port on your windsurfer then normally you would bear off and go under my kite. You probably wouldn't like that very much and as a former windsurfer can appreciate not being comfortable under my kite lines. yes, you could make your course alteration sooner which would make sure you are clear of my lines.
This also puts you way downwind which you won't like much either.

This is what I do as a kiter. And no it is not technically correct but so far works for me and keeps everyone happy.....I think.

I am on Starboard and I see you coming on Port tack on your windsurfer.
Because I try to pay attention out here (sometimes) I alter course very early and drastically to allow you to maintain your course, speed, and not have to bear off. That way you are above my kite lines and not losing ground to windward.

So, you are happy because you didn't have to go underneath my kitelines and I am happy because I have just made a windsurfer's day!

Same thing, if we are both on the same tack and you are gaining on me.
Instead of trying to pinch up, I bear way way off to let you go above me.

Just makes life easier and besides it isn't a race.....or is it?

martin

Martin wrote:This is what I do as a kiter. And no it is not technically correct but so far works for me and keeps everyone happy.....I think.

I am on Starboard and I see you coming on Port tack on your windsurfer.
Because I try to pay attention out here (sometimes) I alter course very early and drastically to allow you to maintain your course, speed, and not have to bear off. That way you are above my kite lines and not losing ground to windward.

So, you are happy because you didn't have to go underneath my kitelines and I am happy because I have just made a windsurfer's day!

Same thing, if we are both on the same tack and you are gaining on me.
Instead of trying to pinch up, I bear way way off to let you go above me.

Just makes life easier and besides it isn't a race.....or is it?

Love the WSfer love, there Martin. Good on you! Goes both ways
Can't help but have to chime in here tho: key item which none of you ever mention when this ROW BS comes up, never mind what freakin' tack you are on or where you are, is our want to ride/fly downwind at a moment's notice. We are all far too maneuverable for these rules to apply, save the barndoor drones at the lake. A windsurfer (and similarly but not nearly as dramatically) will plane up or jump or carve down a wave or some chop by going downwind!! The biggest problem is proximity of a kite (or windsurfer) downwind.....I always have guys practically brush up against me thinking they are doing me a huge favor cuz I don't like being beneath the lines well, guess again, I do watch the lines but a lot of times I have to hold my course, miss a wave or chop just because your bonehead is right below me Forget the freaking tacking rules that yachts use for crying out loud for all ya bunch of yachtie flottilla captain wankers out there You need to know what the other guy is doing or about to do.....to know that you need to know something about the other sport and the water conditions I can totally tell when you kiters are lining up a jump or a kiteloop or are about to gybe or carve a wave.....so I am not giving way and running underneath yer freaking landing zone!! I have my eyes open and watch the kite Similarly, a kiter should recognize when a windsurfer or kiter is getting close to a good sized chop they want to jump, hit a wave or the break to keep TF out of the way below the rider...or when they are bolting well below to catch a wave so guess what.....now you cannot boost that air without endangering the rider....hence try not to boost in the break, eh?? I know, you want to be near the beach for the camera ....and I get it.
Another example is moronman timing his run through the break from the beach just as a whole squadron of guys are coming in and going down the line Who has got the right of way?? Probably the moron....Not only is his/her timing horrible but now they likely turn into a freaking huge wave pylon cuz guess why all those guys are coming in? The best crunching douching wave of the day!!
We are far too fast and in too close of a proximity to worry about whose got the right of way.....watch the other guy and let him have a wave or a jump.....was he lining it up first? Is your "evasive" move gonna screw his ride over THAT's what you should be thinking about.....if you are coming toward another guy or gal just give them wide berth, why not?

someone have a bad day at work??

well actually I agree with Kus. I have had this discussion way too many times, sometimes I had ROW or sometimes others do. Mostly I head down wind and make it up on the other side...no big deal. The ONLY exception for me is on super light winds...then I get kinda pissed when some totally pinches me out so I stall creating all sorts of hazards...all for a few feet of water..cmon. I also want to mimick JL's post of lifting and lowering kites....even people who I think should know better don't do it....please do it makes things so much simpler. And finally...once again in agreement with Kus....pay the freak attention to what is going on around you!!! this I say especially to other kiters who take off without even considering what is coming down wind of them...take a moment and look back and if all is clear then lift off..if not clear then save it for another moment its not the end of the world if ya miss it there will be another one

I agree with everything Kus says above, especially the part about yachting rules not necessarily applying to non racer wind junkies. Another point that I believe really needs to be reemphasized is what to do on waves, especially when the waves get big and the water gets crowded. I think at this point the guy(s)/girl(s) on the wave have just as much responsibility for avoiding the riders coming back out past the break. It used to be that only a few were insane enough to head out when the waves got really big. Not so anymore. In double, triple or bigger overhead conditions the waves are getting crowded. Messing about in the impact zone can be very costly. I have encountered a few situations where there are riders bunched in together riding a wave. Some choose to ride the wave downwind and some choose to ride the wave upwind and there are riders trying to get back out before getting bombed by the incoming set. The problem arises when this group meets in the limited space between two big waves. In this situation I think the person heading out (especially strapless) has the least number of options. Hitting a huge breaking bomber head on is potentially deadly (almost lost a friend to this here in Maui last year). Quickly turning (tacking or gybing) onto the wave just increases the already crowded conditions and risks the other incoming riders, especially the kiters, by making a full turn with lines possibly sweeping into the kites presently on the wave. The outgoing kiters best option is to hit the wave at the unbroken lip. If this is taken away the only other options are those mentioned above (nasty) or to bail (worse). I have had incoming riders (usually non-locals) give me attitude about “their” wave, when I am trying to get out with very little room, only to find themselves on the opposite side of this argument on their next venture out and I am on my way in. It takes extraordinary restraint to not pinch these riders into the wave face, (but that is a different discussion). The point I am trying to (re)make is that it is excellent practice to begin thinking about what the other riders options are and trying to leave them open. There is rarely any necessity for this, until the conditions get deadly serious and then it is a pretty good skill to have and exercise.

Some great points here. When places like CB and Kook St. get strong enough wind for waves and large chop to form, they favour starboard jumping and port riding or turning on swell. The reef at Kook st often sets up as one of the better places to jump for windsurfing, but when I do, it's invariably got someone pinching upwind on port, lines low,to boost a jump just inside the reef, close to the beach (naughty, naughty), or the other rider doesn't anticipate that a windsurfer can boost (maybe they've watched too many windsurfers at Nitinat) and they tuck in just down wind making it impossible to jump. This happens again and again, usually the same culprits to blame.

Like KUS said, opportunities for jumping or riding take precedence over pinching someone out or even ("innocent") cock blocking due to ignorance. It's become much more crowded at our local spots with many new faces. No problem, but take a moment to watch and notice other peoples' styles and you can begin to anticipate when someone like Kus is going to launch a backloop from a swell spotted a long way off or a kiter like Superdave is going to tear the top off of a reef wave. The rigid ROW rules make spots with waves and small real estate a hassle to play in. A little anticipation makes all the difference for all of us. So does the odd grin or smile.

Now bring on the SE winds!

Should not be strapless in Large waves.Safety first ,

Hmm. I've heard strapless in large waves isn't such a bad idea. In large waves you want to be able to ditch your gear. Jordon rides without a leash in large waves.

But I've never done it. So.

No large waves around here, If you Bail on the Fist wave of a set due to your lack of skill due to not having foot straps, and I am on the wave behind you " I WILL RUN U OVER"

more force 4 wrote: I had another near miss at the Nat when I was the burdened (port tack) sailor, I noted way off that a sailor on starboard was on a collision course. I was trying to stay upwind and tried to pinch above him. I went up, and I thought he'd changed course (instead of holding it). We started the 'dance' where I pinched even higher and I thought he'd changed again. He blasted past just behind me as I was almost stopped with us both yelling. .

dude my bad, sorry! i was just trying to let you know i had misplaced my vent plug, so had borrowed yours while you were on lunch break.

KUS wrote: Forget the freaking tacking rules that yachts use for crying out loud for all ya bunch of yachtie flottilla captain wankers out there You need to know what the other guy is doing or about to do.....

This is simply what these rules try to address.. If you are as aware out on the water as you should be... you should be able to identify someone's course and tack, proper course relative to the area you're sailing, future intentions / maneuvers, or retardation / lack of experience, or even just a super crazy mofo... and therefore you give them a huge wide berth and stay out of the way of the kook...

all other great points to consider when wave riding.. coming in going out.. launching landing... this is how we all learn to be better...when not on the water learning by trail and error

The first rule of waves is to stay out of the person riding the waves way, even if this means getting taken out by the whitewater. The waverider has complete right of way. Also, there should only ever be one person on a wave unless the wave is breaking both left and right. Generally the person closest to the peak has priority.

As for the rest--the best rule is be aware of what others ar doing, or about to do.

I'll toss out an example of bad wave etiquette, related to Gareth's point.

Imagine that you're wave sailing (ws or kite). You're coming in, lined up a sweet wave, it's starting to jack up. But ... what's this ... some dood is coming OUT thru the break, spots your wave, and decides to squeeze between you and the peak, do a quick turn, and start coming down the wave -- thereby thinking that they now claim right of way on the wave (closest to the peak). BAD Karma dood! Don't do it ... if you see someone on a wave, coming in, don't steal it from them. I've only ever run into this problem on the OR coast.

Snaking someone is always bad and shouldn't' be tolerated.in that case just drop in anyway. When they yell at you just tell them that the beach might be s better place for them to hang out.