Legal aspect on "helping"a friend kiting
Legal aspect on "helping"a friend kiting
I just read quickly the accident & safety tips, and I noticed that some people says that if you somewhat teach or initiate your friend into kiting and he injured himself or died you can be in deep @#$% if he/she or his/her familly decide to sue you.
Is there anyone sure of this? Even if the person is older then 18 y old?
You do not ask money in return? You do not garantee them any inssurance coverage and warn them that you are not at all an instrutor and they would be better to take lessons by a qualified instructor, etc... etc... etc...?
I think it is stupid that someone can buy a kite, learn on their own, injured themself or others and not being able to sue the kite company for it BUT if a friend is a kiter and give them some tips or lend them a kite now that person can sue that friend for helping because he wasnt a qualified instructor. Where is the logic in that?
It doesnt make sense. Is this mean that I can sue the friend who introduce me to kiting 8 years ago next time I get injured? Obviously not, so what is the time/flying time limit, who/what criteria/skill level are used to judge that the person learning is not able to sue the person that initiate them into kiteboarding anymore? It seems to be way too many unwritten rules/law in order to have a fair lawsuit.
Is that mean that as soon as you lend your kite to anyone and they hurt themself they can sue you because it was your kite?
If someone here find a link on some information regarding this or other example with other sports please share here.
ie: Someone has a boat with wakeboarding set up, bring some friends in to wake board and someone injured themself, that someone can sue the boat owner?
I think as long as you are an adult you should not be able to sue someone else for your own decision to learn a new sport, especially if you dont pay the people teaching you and they warn you before hand that they are not instructor, this sport is dangerous and they should go with qualified instruction.
P.S I am not encouraging people to teach their friends, and I am big time encouraging friends/acquintance to take lessons. Just curious how much the justice system is.
sorry for my frenglish.
Is there anyone sure of this? Even if the person is older then 18 y old?
You do not ask money in return? You do not garantee them any inssurance coverage and warn them that you are not at all an instrutor and they would be better to take lessons by a qualified instructor, etc... etc... etc...?
I think it is stupid that someone can buy a kite, learn on their own, injured themself or others and not being able to sue the kite company for it BUT if a friend is a kiter and give them some tips or lend them a kite now that person can sue that friend for helping because he wasnt a qualified instructor. Where is the logic in that?
It doesnt make sense. Is this mean that I can sue the friend who introduce me to kiting 8 years ago next time I get injured? Obviously not, so what is the time/flying time limit, who/what criteria/skill level are used to judge that the person learning is not able to sue the person that initiate them into kiteboarding anymore? It seems to be way too many unwritten rules/law in order to have a fair lawsuit.
Is that mean that as soon as you lend your kite to anyone and they hurt themself they can sue you because it was your kite?
If someone here find a link on some information regarding this or other example with other sports please share here.
ie: Someone has a boat with wakeboarding set up, bring some friends in to wake board and someone injured themself, that someone can sue the boat owner?
I think as long as you are an adult you should not be able to sue someone else for your own decision to learn a new sport, especially if you dont pay the people teaching you and they warn you before hand that they are not instructor, this sport is dangerous and they should go with qualified instruction.
P.S I am not encouraging people to teach their friends, and I am big time encouraging friends/acquintance to take lessons. Just curious how much the justice system is.
sorry for my frenglish.
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Russian Dood
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 11:06 am
- Location: Still here, alive and kicking
Hey anyone wana help a nice Russian fellow to learn kiting? I promise if something goes wrong we don't sue people... we just call other nice Russian fellows if you know what I mean....
Anyway I tottaly agree with both statements 1. it is as stupid as "This container may contain hot liquid" warning on a coffee cup. and 2. TAKE LESSONS
And of course as a newby kiter I accept risks involved and my responsibilities. So if something goes wrong it was my decision to fly the kite a friend helping or not.
Anyway I tottaly agree with both statements 1. it is as stupid as "This container may contain hot liquid" warning on a coffee cup. and 2. TAKE LESSONS
And of course as a newby kiter I accept risks involved and my responsibilities. So if something goes wrong it was my decision to fly the kite a friend helping or not.
Cancer must die!
This is all fine and good - but the reality is that regardless if people take lessons or not they still need help!
you don't learn to kite overnight. I have lots of friends that have taken lessons but I wouldn't want to see them try to kite on their own - so I would say as "experienced" kiters it is our responsibility to help people new to the sport.
Furthermore - there is certainly no harm in helping your friends learn to fly a trainer and then move to a 2-4m inflatable kite etc.
In my experience people that do take lessons are all too eager to move up to bigger kites and frankly when teaching there just isn't enough time to have them fly the trainer as long as they should. My personal belief is that people learning don't spend enough time flying smaller kites and then when they move to the bigger kites they don't have the experience necessary.
I've taught a number of people in the past and that has always been the problem. Had they had a friend to safely show them how to fly a trainer and then move to a small 4 line kite I think they would have had much more success much quicker.
I taught my girlfriend recently and I had her on a trainer for months and then a 4 meter for months and finally moved her to a 6m and she's flown a 10m a couple times. But only after I was very satisfied that she could fly the kites as well as I could. She's successfully riding upwind now.
I learned on my own and would have loved a hand or two. Fortunately, I spend a good deal of time flying a trainer - that being said it wasn't a smooth learning curve. Furthermore, there are a lot of people, myself included, that can't afford to take lessons - its just not an option.
So am I going to be a hypocrite and tell them they're not allowed to kite and I'm not going to help them out unless they take lessons?
Probably not.
Just my two, or less, cents.
you don't learn to kite overnight. I have lots of friends that have taken lessons but I wouldn't want to see them try to kite on their own - so I would say as "experienced" kiters it is our responsibility to help people new to the sport.
Furthermore - there is certainly no harm in helping your friends learn to fly a trainer and then move to a 2-4m inflatable kite etc.
In my experience people that do take lessons are all too eager to move up to bigger kites and frankly when teaching there just isn't enough time to have them fly the trainer as long as they should. My personal belief is that people learning don't spend enough time flying smaller kites and then when they move to the bigger kites they don't have the experience necessary.
I've taught a number of people in the past and that has always been the problem. Had they had a friend to safely show them how to fly a trainer and then move to a small 4 line kite I think they would have had much more success much quicker.
I taught my girlfriend recently and I had her on a trainer for months and then a 4 meter for months and finally moved her to a 6m and she's flown a 10m a couple times. But only after I was very satisfied that she could fly the kites as well as I could. She's successfully riding upwind now.
I learned on my own and would have loved a hand or two. Fortunately, I spend a good deal of time flying a trainer - that being said it wasn't a smooth learning curve. Furthermore, there are a lot of people, myself included, that can't afford to take lessons - its just not an option.
So am I going to be a hypocrite and tell them they're not allowed to kite and I'm not going to help them out unless they take lessons?
Probably not.
Just my two, or less, cents.
I personally think it all depends on the individual. I myself purchased a 3m trainer and a mountainboard when I lived in Ukee. I went out to longbeach and started to slowly self teach. I tried to find a qualified instructor or even someone with experience. But 4 years ago there was not as many people around into the sport. In fact I heard there was a guy in Tofino giving lessons but when I called him up I found out he left town. My next purchase was $3000 in gear (a 12m one with all the fixens). After I got all this stuff home I was honest with myself and realized that I was in no way ready to jump into Tofino surf with a 12m one in winter wind. So I decided to ditch the whole idea of water kiting and have become a competent landkiter and invested in more land gear. The reason I am not in the water is because I am honest with myself. Plus I don't trust anyone in my life to launch me except my GF. She hates the sport..... LOL! What do you guys figure is the biggest fundamental of Kiting? I figure it is The ability to be honest with one self. I have kite control and a basic understanding of the fundamentals, keep your kite low and to the side of the wind window when launching and landing or when on land, get in the water ASP while keeping your kite low/to the side, launch unhooked towards the water, drop the bar when in trouble, gusty no good, on shore not good. I do know what I need to do to get in the water. I need a safe place to practice body dragging with my smaller 9m one kite on a lighter side on shore wind day with shallow water. My point is I would love to be able to go to a beach with some experienced kiters ask some questions and get a launch. From what I am seeing on these threads I might be told to piss off and get some lessons. Funny thing is I would do that if I could afford it but I can't right now. And from what I saw at Nitnat 2 years ago when I was there I'll be paying 300 bucks for a day on the water but in the end I don't think I would get as much from a lesson as a complete kook. Plus some of the more experienced kiters out there seemed to be pretty dangerous and the place is pretty crowded. I think the spit or parkville looked safer to me! I think every one is becoming abit paranoid but then again I'm here in Port Alberni.
$3000 in kite gear but can't afford lessons 
could have bought 20 half-days of kiting with lesson gear instead of trashing your own stuff, rescue and probably a beer or two...... and you'd probably be competent and on the water....... landkiting must be a lot safer 
I hear & see that all the time
oh, and to the paranoids out there, it is very difficult to prove criminal negligence and apparently you can commit premeditated murder in this country and get out in 2-3 on parole, no biggie 
could have bought 20 half-days of kiting with lesson gear instead of trashing your own stuff, rescue and probably a beer or two...... and you'd probably be competent and on the water....... landkiting must be a lot safer I hear & see that all the timeoh, and to the paranoids out there, it is very difficult to prove criminal negligence
and apparently you can commit premeditated murder in this country and get out in 2-3 on parole, no biggie At that time (start of 2007) money was no object Kus. I was single! LOL Lessons or infomation on kiting was hard to find though. In those days I had good jobs and traveled every where for work. I lived in my van. the only info I could dig up on my cell phone was the old OR website. I bought my gear from Coastline for top dollar. I was a total KOOK and knew more about kiting then the guy that sold my gear to me. I asked about lessons. They had no clue where I could go. My point is I can land kite with foils quite safely. I can ride up wind jump and am very realistic about my limitations. The only reason I stick to land kiting is it is easier and safer for me on my own. I find it funny that just as I feel a urge to go down to a beach and try and find some other kiters I stumble on these threads that seem so anti new guys. I welcome the input. I saved some french guys once from launching at long beach in some gusty big wave conditions when I was living out there! They just came from Nitnat after one lesson and figured they were going to giver. I told them I was way over powered on my 9.5 on land and calling it a day. I got ready to witness a kitemere as they proceeded to set up there 11m kite I out weighed these guys by at least 40 ponds. I asked his buddy how much experience they had. "One lesson." he said. "Really" I said WOW one lesson and he's going to kite "SURF" in gusties! I told him "That's Nuts! One lesson gave him those skills?" I figured he was yanking my chain! turns out they were over confident kooks after all and wrap her up! So lessons or not local knowledge helps. I think if I wasn't there they would of went for it. They came up to me after words and thanked me. I understand the "this is my beach" mentality we get. For the year that I was the only kiter in Ukee I had to deal with the tourists, with their drift wood pole plants that they stick straight in the air, and the 200' single string kiters that almost got kites band on the beach. A little local knowledge LOOK OUT FOR PLANES LANDING AT THE AIRPORT AT LONG BEACH! I always drop my kite down for them. What I am trying to say is the beach is every bodies even kooks. I talked to Dale, Dwane and Mark while I was at the Nat. I didn't have cash for lessons. I sat. I watched and I listened. And I learned. What I got at the nat was respect so I gave it back. I think there are some BS artists out there. And if kiters become beach natzi's people won't ask questions and give attitude to look the part and they will get hurt!
When we started to kite
I just wanted to state that BWD web site was not around when we started to kite.
We actually chased each wind and we would all be at the beach
eather waiting or just hanging out with each other talking about kiteboarding.
It is great if people are cool and happy to help each other.
We actually chased each wind and we would all be at the beach
eather waiting or just hanging out with each other talking about kiteboarding.
It is great if people are cool and happy to help each other.
Jaycracz,
Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and have some great things to say. What you did to the frenchies at the beach is what everyone down in Victoria have been doing. Unfortunately, there are so many new people, that you can't keep up with it. The beginners are launching each other in non suitable conditions before you even have a chance to notice and tell them what is up. That is why lately it has been kind of negative toward newbies on BWD. There are also guys like your self who ask questions, sit back, watch and hang out a few times to a whole summer. Then attempt to proceed with the next steps with the thumbs up from the experienced people on the beach that have gotten to know them. If you choose, like some have lately, to run your mouth that you are so hard core and extreme, and are so good at other sports and work and bla bla bla. Then run out their and put you and the guy who is going to save your ass in danger, you are going to hear that kind of aditude on BWD. It is not to detour people from coming to the beach to learn, just chose you words, conditions and location wisely. The one thing I learned and continue to practise in all of the locations I have kited is, ONLY KITE OUT AS FAR AS YOU WANT TO SWIM BACK!!
As for suing people for having shown one how to fly at kite, write up a document to state your intentions, see your lawyer or get it notarized. Then get them to sign it before the kite goes up, but first read the above posts first, and ask your self, is it really worth it.
Thanks, Jordan
Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and have some great things to say. What you did to the frenchies at the beach is what everyone down in Victoria have been doing. Unfortunately, there are so many new people, that you can't keep up with it. The beginners are launching each other in non suitable conditions before you even have a chance to notice and tell them what is up. That is why lately it has been kind of negative toward newbies on BWD. There are also guys like your self who ask questions, sit back, watch and hang out a few times to a whole summer. Then attempt to proceed with the next steps with the thumbs up from the experienced people on the beach that have gotten to know them. If you choose, like some have lately, to run your mouth that you are so hard core and extreme, and are so good at other sports and work and bla bla bla. Then run out their and put you and the guy who is going to save your ass in danger, you are going to hear that kind of aditude on BWD. It is not to detour people from coming to the beach to learn, just chose you words, conditions and location wisely. The one thing I learned and continue to practise in all of the locations I have kited is, ONLY KITE OUT AS FAR AS YOU WANT TO SWIM BACK!!
As for suing people for having shown one how to fly at kite, write up a document to state your intentions, see your lawyer or get it notarized. Then get them to sign it before the kite goes up, but first read the above posts first, and ask your self, is it really worth it.
Thanks, Jordan
advice
OK, so the really new guy is going to respectfully jump in here. I just want to give another prospective.
With respect to people that have “been there, done that”. Yes that can get bothersome and annoying when it comes across as arrogant. That said, I have reached the expert and/or elite level of several “adventure” and extreme sports. But for that to be true it would take time, right? That’s why I am probably twice everyone’s age on this forum. I’ve been hooked on all things adrenaline for over 35 years.
I’m not trying to brag…but all those things I have done have made me stronger, faster, and more coordinated than most people half my age…sorry but its true. (Perhaps it’s more of a statement of the shape the majority of people half my age are in.) That experience also means I already understand risk, risk avoidance, I do not panic under extreme pressure, that you work your way to the top of a sport, and you talk listen and learn from people already experienced.
I agree with everything that is said about joining in and listening and trying to learn as much as I can from the “pros” around me. In return however, I expect those people to respect the fact that I already bring a lot to the table…I will NOT be starting from absolute scratch and I will learn much faster than most.
I took my first step towards kiteboarding today. I just got my practice kite Friday and went down to Island View today. There was three kiteboarders out, and rather than fly my kite for the first time, I watched those experienced boarders and took the opportunity to talk to them…great guys, very helpful and friendly. I look forward to meeting again and to learn as much as I can from their extraordinary experiences.
I will take every opportunity I can to fly my practice kite and talk with those very experienced boarders. Then in May I will take my first lessons and afterwards begin serious kiting…in areas that are appropriate for my skill levels.
As for the liability of offering advice to newbies:
Kiteboarding is obviously considered a high risk recreational activity. Whenever someone knowingly undertakes these types of activity they have given consent to accept those inherit risks. The courts do not rule on stupidity, but…
As long as the advice does NOT extend to coercion which intentionally puts someone at risk that would otherwise not have taken that risk, which directly results in harm, you are alright. So if you said that it was perfectly alright, and encouraged a newbie, who showed up with all their own equipment, to kiteboard from 10 mile point to Discover Is during a strong tide and gale...ya, you would bear some of the liability for any harm to that newbie. The extent of that coercion would dictate the level of liability you would own. If you told the newbie it was alright, loaned them gear, and then launched them (which enables the coercion)…ya you would own that liability almost completely.
Given the inherit risks, advice is fine to give in almost any circumstances. Good advice actually reduces risk. Stupid people are everywhere, ignore them.
Cheers Gord
With respect to people that have “been there, done that”. Yes that can get bothersome and annoying when it comes across as arrogant. That said, I have reached the expert and/or elite level of several “adventure” and extreme sports. But for that to be true it would take time, right? That’s why I am probably twice everyone’s age on this forum. I’ve been hooked on all things adrenaline for over 35 years.
I’m not trying to brag…but all those things I have done have made me stronger, faster, and more coordinated than most people half my age…sorry but its true. (Perhaps it’s more of a statement of the shape the majority of people half my age are in.) That experience also means I already understand risk, risk avoidance, I do not panic under extreme pressure, that you work your way to the top of a sport, and you talk listen and learn from people already experienced.
I agree with everything that is said about joining in and listening and trying to learn as much as I can from the “pros” around me. In return however, I expect those people to respect the fact that I already bring a lot to the table…I will NOT be starting from absolute scratch and I will learn much faster than most.
I took my first step towards kiteboarding today. I just got my practice kite Friday and went down to Island View today. There was three kiteboarders out, and rather than fly my kite for the first time, I watched those experienced boarders and took the opportunity to talk to them…great guys, very helpful and friendly. I look forward to meeting again and to learn as much as I can from their extraordinary experiences.
I will take every opportunity I can to fly my practice kite and talk with those very experienced boarders. Then in May I will take my first lessons and afterwards begin serious kiting…in areas that are appropriate for my skill levels.
As for the liability of offering advice to newbies:
Kiteboarding is obviously considered a high risk recreational activity. Whenever someone knowingly undertakes these types of activity they have given consent to accept those inherit risks. The courts do not rule on stupidity, but…
As long as the advice does NOT extend to coercion which intentionally puts someone at risk that would otherwise not have taken that risk, which directly results in harm, you are alright. So if you said that it was perfectly alright, and encouraged a newbie, who showed up with all their own equipment, to kiteboard from 10 mile point to Discover Is during a strong tide and gale...ya, you would bear some of the liability for any harm to that newbie. The extent of that coercion would dictate the level of liability you would own. If you told the newbie it was alright, loaned them gear, and then launched them (which enables the coercion)…ya you would own that liability almost completely.
Given the inherit risks, advice is fine to give in almost any circumstances. Good advice actually reduces risk. Stupid people are everywhere, ignore them.
Cheers Gord
