Legal aspect on "helping"a friend kiting
twice as old as most and in better shape!?
Hey Gord good for you for recognizing that different people have different abilities and experiences in life. It is very true this sport is far harder for some than for others. I learned quickly and did receive some flack from more experienced kiters in that process. However remember one thing, kiteboarding has the potential to be very dangerous weather you are experienced or not, keep that in mind. In fact some very experienced kiters have recently had incidents that could have gone far worse than they did. That is the unpredictable edge to this sport. So be safe and try to always have the correct and informed approach to things. Have a look at the accidents/safety thread on this site for more info.
Regarding your experience/age comments. They sure did come off a little "cocky" shall we say but that is the nature of text forums. Keep in mind local kiters range in age from mid twentys well into the late fifities or sixties. I would say the average age is well into the 30's if not 40's for local kiters. I myself am 39 and just started last year. So maybe you are correct and your years of experience do make a difference, assuming you are 70-80yrs old. Otherwise you are just another extreme sports enthusiast like the rest of us. I Would suggest your average overweight middle aged person is not really getting into kiting any time soon. When I tell most of my friends my age what I do they think I am nuts.
Be safe and have fun. You are in for a great treat once you get it.
Reuben
Regarding your experience/age comments. They sure did come off a little "cocky" shall we say but that is the nature of text forums. Keep in mind local kiters range in age from mid twentys well into the late fifities or sixties. I would say the average age is well into the 30's if not 40's for local kiters. I myself am 39 and just started last year. So maybe you are correct and your years of experience do make a difference, assuming you are 70-80yrs old. Otherwise you are just another extreme sports enthusiast like the rest of us. I Would suggest your average overweight middle aged person is not really getting into kiting any time soon. When I tell most of my friends my age what I do they think I am nuts.
Be safe and have fun. You are in for a great treat once you get it.
Reuben
Hey Gord... It was good to meet you today... IGNORE the previous post!!!
I think you are approaching this sport with the right attitude. Get as much info as you can before you jump into things... You didn't look that old to me. ;) And as far as I'm concerned you seem like a fairly level headed dude. Not "cocky" at all!
I applaude your effort in getting aquainted with the gear and getting to know some of us.
I look forward to seeing you down at the beach again soon!
Bille
I think you are approaching this sport with the right attitude. Get as much info as you can before you jump into things... You didn't look that old to me. ;) And as far as I'm concerned you seem like a fairly level headed dude. Not "cocky" at all!
I applaude your effort in getting aquainted with the gear and getting to know some of us.
I look forward to seeing you down at the beach again soon!
Bille
Billy you suck.
Bill, can you explain one reason why he should IGNORE my post. Other than the fact that you just want to be pissy tonight.
See you at the beach.
Reuben
See you at the beach.
Reuben
No Ruben I haven't touched any booze for weeks now!!!
It seems that you are trying to call the guy out on some of his comments about his experiences... You ASSUMED that he was old, overweight and cocky...WRONG!!! Just because YOU made some Bonehead Moves in the past, doesn't mean that everyone will follow suit...
Frankly the guy seems to have a good head on his shoulders, and has a pretty good attitude. I'm sure that some of his experiences will definately help him along in this sport.
It seems that you are trying to call the guy out on some of his comments about his experiences... You ASSUMED that he was old, overweight and cocky...WRONG!!! Just because YOU made some Bonehead Moves in the past, doesn't mean that everyone will follow suit...
Frankly the guy seems to have a good head on his shoulders, and has a pretty good attitude. I'm sure that some of his experiences will definately help him along in this sport.
No assumptions. Pretty sure he said it all in his post about his age and experience that made him older, faster, stronger and better than everyone else. Did I say anything about overweight ?? WTF ? By the way being "pissy" has nothing to do with booze. Pretty crazy how posts can be misinterpreted as I noted at the start of mine.
Maybe read them before arbitrarily posting with the intent of being controversial. Are "IGNORE" and "bonehead" really needed. Gords request to respect him based on his years of life experience should be extended to all kiters. That has always been my approach but does not seem to be that of others.
I like you Bill but on these forums you can be a "bonehead" and I am pretty sure people should just start to "IGNORE" YOU.
Reuben
Maybe read them before arbitrarily posting with the intent of being controversial. Are "IGNORE" and "bonehead" really needed. Gords request to respect him based on his years of life experience should be extended to all kiters. That has always been my approach but does not seem to be that of others.
I like you Bill but on these forums you can be a "bonehead" and I am pretty sure people should just start to "IGNORE" YOU.
Reuben
Toughen up Buttercup... If it wasn't for you, a lot of these accident/safety and legal aspect threads wouldn't be here now would they... I like how you feel the need to be a "Safety Authority" on all things kiting. You still have a lot to learn Ruben. Someone previous hit the nail on the head when they said that you were convinced of your own superiority... Don't think I could have put it better myself.
The point of this thread was "LEGAL ASPECTS OF TEACHING A FRIEND" I think that GP gave probably the best insight to that issue, pay attention!
The point of this thread was "LEGAL ASPECTS OF TEACHING A FRIEND" I think that GP gave probably the best insight to that issue, pay attention!
""
Just thought i would throw it out there"
Nice entertainment BK, and Hienz 57 .
I will say that a good Majority of injuries happen to people over confident,
Experienced, and people who do not pay enough attention. DOUBLE CHECKING LINES""
Nice entertainment BK, and Hienz 57 .
I will say that a good Majority of injuries happen to people over confident,
Experienced, and people who do not pay enough attention. DOUBLE CHECKING LINES""
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sharkdiver
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:14 am
so you all know i am not a kiter yet. but coming from scuba diving and becoming an instructor with Padi and divemaster with other agencies, i have taught people formally and also mentored divers. giving advice to newbies is not a big deal, it is helping the sport grow(and it is going to grow) it is also helping people do the sport in a safe way. I have seen newbies in diving want to do deep and wreck dive right after their open water and just shake my head. accident waiting to happen. I always looked for people who wanted to learn to dive safe and get different types of diving, not the guys and gals who wanted to do extreme stuff and blew off my advice.
As for taking a friend and teaching him right from the start, everything that you know about a sport when you are still new is dangerous. you yourself are learning the different aspects of an unforgiving sport and nature. Ya I know the water, but i do not know the wind and the characteristics of the winds. I do know that when I am at race rocks I get standing waves with divers in the water, I am not going to have a good day picking them up. there is a reason that when a dive course is taken there is so much paperwork as an instructor, it is because accidents have happened and people have come back years later with lawsuits. because of that documentation those lawsuits were dissmissed, for those instructors who screwed up they are no longer teaching.
kiting has been around for a while now and is getting very popular and will continue to grow. like it or not, and it is because some of you are really good. it looks fun and has the element of risk. so it will attract people who want to learn and people who think they know it all. help the people who want to learn. If they are not listening to you when advice is offered walk away. if they are dangerous then who knows.
hopefully those people who are cocky will realize this is not for them. and hopefully those people who ask and want to learn will grow in the sport and become a good addition to your community.
for those of you who are helping people and taking in curious people keep it up. but do not waste your time on the ones who can hurt your exciting sport.
As for taking a friend and teaching him right from the start, everything that you know about a sport when you are still new is dangerous. you yourself are learning the different aspects of an unforgiving sport and nature. Ya I know the water, but i do not know the wind and the characteristics of the winds. I do know that when I am at race rocks I get standing waves with divers in the water, I am not going to have a good day picking them up. there is a reason that when a dive course is taken there is so much paperwork as an instructor, it is because accidents have happened and people have come back years later with lawsuits. because of that documentation those lawsuits were dissmissed, for those instructors who screwed up they are no longer teaching.
kiting has been around for a while now and is getting very popular and will continue to grow. like it or not, and it is because some of you are really good. it looks fun and has the element of risk. so it will attract people who want to learn and people who think they know it all. help the people who want to learn. If they are not listening to you when advice is offered walk away. if they are dangerous then who knows.
hopefully those people who are cocky will realize this is not for them. and hopefully those people who ask and want to learn will grow in the sport and become a good addition to your community.
for those of you who are helping people and taking in curious people keep it up. but do not waste your time on the ones who can hurt your exciting sport.
BK it was great meeting you dude, it was a big deal to me, honest.
As for the rest…I am actually older than I look, not that it matters. I’m not going to get into it, cause it will come off cocky, but kiteboarding will not be anywhere close to the riskiest sport I have taken up, on water, land or air. My first career was actually all about extremes, danger, and adrenaline...different story.
In my twenties/thirties I took some incredibly stupid risks, just for the fun of it. When I look back on the crap I pulled I can stay with absolute certainly that I am on borrowed time. I can point to 4 specific moments I should been killed…missed getting the big green weenie by half a heart beat, if that. Partly because of that I know I am so far past that now, you have no idea.
As for my assumption that I am twice most boarders age. Anytime you make a generalization like that you wear it from someone…but I am in my mid 50s. My point is not the age over age value, it’s the experience gained over that time, while doing some crazy ass stuff along the way. So if you are 39, you have the same level of experience over a 24 year old as I have over you…in general terms of course. Not everyone may like that comparison, and I know it is not entirely fair because everyone is different, but as you do get older its one of the inevitable truths in life you come to realize…experiences leads to wisdom at some point. I like to think I’ve reached that point but it’s a continuous process.
I didn’t take anything in the pervious posts as a harsh criticism. It’s all a matter of prospective and therefore never incorrect, nor should it be taken personally. Also this is not a new discussion for me. Anytime you take up a sport like this there is an inevitable pecking order. It’s nothing new, and it doesn’t bother me in the least.
At the end of the day all of this is about boarding. I recently discovered boarding. It was as if I had finally found the perfect sport I was always meant to do. It brings many of my past sports together and combines the level of risk and adrenaline I need to keep from getting bored. It will also undoubtedly be the last high risk sport I will be able to take up…given my age. That is a very big deal, which everyone has to come to terms with at some point in their life. I just never thought it would happen to me, its a strange moment.
It’s all good guys…its going to be a blast. In May I will have a lesson from Strong, next Feb I plan on being the in Caribbean boarding, then come back and really get into it. But for now, I need to learn and listen.
As for the rest…I am actually older than I look, not that it matters. I’m not going to get into it, cause it will come off cocky, but kiteboarding will not be anywhere close to the riskiest sport I have taken up, on water, land or air. My first career was actually all about extremes, danger, and adrenaline...different story.
In my twenties/thirties I took some incredibly stupid risks, just for the fun of it. When I look back on the crap I pulled I can stay with absolute certainly that I am on borrowed time. I can point to 4 specific moments I should been killed…missed getting the big green weenie by half a heart beat, if that. Partly because of that I know I am so far past that now, you have no idea.
As for my assumption that I am twice most boarders age. Anytime you make a generalization like that you wear it from someone…but I am in my mid 50s. My point is not the age over age value, it’s the experience gained over that time, while doing some crazy ass stuff along the way. So if you are 39, you have the same level of experience over a 24 year old as I have over you…in general terms of course. Not everyone may like that comparison, and I know it is not entirely fair because everyone is different, but as you do get older its one of the inevitable truths in life you come to realize…experiences leads to wisdom at some point. I like to think I’ve reached that point but it’s a continuous process.
I didn’t take anything in the pervious posts as a harsh criticism. It’s all a matter of prospective and therefore never incorrect, nor should it be taken personally. Also this is not a new discussion for me. Anytime you take up a sport like this there is an inevitable pecking order. It’s nothing new, and it doesn’t bother me in the least.
At the end of the day all of this is about boarding. I recently discovered boarding. It was as if I had finally found the perfect sport I was always meant to do. It brings many of my past sports together and combines the level of risk and adrenaline I need to keep from getting bored. It will also undoubtedly be the last high risk sport I will be able to take up…given my age. That is a very big deal, which everyone has to come to terms with at some point in their life. I just never thought it would happen to me, its a strange moment.
It’s all good guys…its going to be a blast. In May I will have a lesson from Strong, next Feb I plan on being the in Caribbean boarding, then come back and really get into it. But for now, I need to learn and listen.
as far as being cautious, I know there comes a time when people feel they are very good at a sport and don't double check lines etc. and wait til Alzheimer's hits and you THINK you checked the vent plug in your Wsurfer or have your harness on 
point is we all F&%K up sometime and if you haven't, don't worry, you will....like my motorcycle licencse examiner once said: three types of riders, those who have fallen, those who will and those who will again. I still ride with that in mind (got rid of the crotch rocket for a slower bike)....maybe if everyone remembered that, we'd be ok.
hmm, perhaps this thread has reached it's maximum benefit/impact? c u on the water "MINE!"
point is we all F&%K up sometime and if you haven't, don't worry, you will....like my motorcycle licencse examiner once said: three types of riders, those who have fallen, those who will and those who will again. I still ride with that in mind (got rid of the crotch rocket for a slower bike)....maybe if everyone remembered that, we'd be ok.
hmm, perhaps this thread has reached it's maximum benefit/impact? c u on the water
"MINE!" 
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blackdogvan
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:38 pm
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kitesurferdale
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Port Alberni
Legality..hmmm legality....what does it mean. I think it means which judge and how pissy they feel and how good the other lawyer is ultimately will determine your fate unless you took the time and liberty to have a form designed to "waive" liabilty which even then is not a "guarantee" for your exemption. It is like anything else..sports, work..etc etc if you can show due diligence (unless money is being exchanged...ie: real lessons) then you should be ok...but proving your due diligence is where the problem begins as it is purely a matter of perspective and who is the better talker/pursuader in front of the judge. Why do you think so many volunteer based services have folded up never to serve the public again....stupid laywers and stupid people wanting someone else to take responsibility for their own actions.
As for the comment "average overweight middle aged person" ummmm THATS ME!!! and proud of it.
Gord, glad for your stoke, would be interested in hearing your tales of adventure around the fire....would agree that experience leans toward wisdom for most.....worried that your "previous" extreme sports, superior athlete etc confidence once in the sport puts you into another one of those "moments" of near death. The purpose of that comment is this..as I am unaware of the other sports you have done I do not know if they were group or single person activities, this sport appears to be a "one" person deal, but truly it is a group sport as your actions do effect others around you...on the water and on the beach. From what you have said you sound reasonable hopefully that continues and you truly get from this sport what you yearn for as we all do.
Cheers to all....
Dale
As for the comment "average overweight middle aged person" ummmm THATS ME!!! and proud of it.
Gord, glad for your stoke, would be interested in hearing your tales of adventure around the fire....would agree that experience leans toward wisdom for most.....worried that your "previous" extreme sports, superior athlete etc confidence once in the sport puts you into another one of those "moments" of near death. The purpose of that comment is this..as I am unaware of the other sports you have done I do not know if they were group or single person activities, this sport appears to be a "one" person deal, but truly it is a group sport as your actions do effect others around you...on the water and on the beach. From what you have said you sound reasonable hopefully that continues and you truly get from this sport what you yearn for as we all do.
Cheers to all....
Dale
Airtime! whoo hoooo, its all about the airtime...... ok waves rock too!
Here is the unofficial legal opinion. I discussed this with a few Crown Council members I had meetings with this week, here is the feedback I received.
Advice by definition is intended to be helpful. Within that context you cannot be found criminally libel for giving advice.
Civil sues however can be initiated by anyone against anyone and could proceed as Dale has described.
There are some key considerations with respect to civil action…the Judge is not permitted to assume anything including the high risks associated with an activity. It is the responsibility of the lawyer to demonstrate those high risks, due diligence, and other important factors. Key considerations are, if money is exchanged (transaction), enablement, i.e. did you lend equipment, and reckless behaviour that endangers others. This last consideration can be hugely interpretational because I understand there are no regulations or formally approved safety processes. NOTE: Drinking and drugs combined with kitebroading is stupidity in the extreme and has huge legal implications.
You can however “counter” sue someone for launching frivolous/malicious lawsuits, although unpleasant, that is the equalizer.
A comment on safety…we are all human, and therefore make mistakes. I consider it a responsibility to point out and constructively raise safety issues at every opportunity. I seriously hope those around me feel the same way. Whether it’s a safety issue caused by a laps of judgement, by forgetfulness, or by inexperience it affects us all directly and/or indirectly. I believe we have this obligation to each other.
I used to belong to a group whose motto was “Deeds not Words”. As we meet you will find I live by that motto…particularly with safety issues.
See you around. Gord
Advice by definition is intended to be helpful. Within that context you cannot be found criminally libel for giving advice.
Civil sues however can be initiated by anyone against anyone and could proceed as Dale has described.
There are some key considerations with respect to civil action…the Judge is not permitted to assume anything including the high risks associated with an activity. It is the responsibility of the lawyer to demonstrate those high risks, due diligence, and other important factors. Key considerations are, if money is exchanged (transaction), enablement, i.e. did you lend equipment, and reckless behaviour that endangers others. This last consideration can be hugely interpretational because I understand there are no regulations or formally approved safety processes. NOTE: Drinking and drugs combined with kitebroading is stupidity in the extreme and has huge legal implications.
You can however “counter” sue someone for launching frivolous/malicious lawsuits, although unpleasant, that is the equalizer.
A comment on safety…we are all human, and therefore make mistakes. I consider it a responsibility to point out and constructively raise safety issues at every opportunity. I seriously hope those around me feel the same way. Whether it’s a safety issue caused by a laps of judgement, by forgetfulness, or by inexperience it affects us all directly and/or indirectly. I believe we have this obligation to each other.
I used to belong to a group whose motto was “Deeds not Words”. As we meet you will find I live by that motto…particularly with safety issues.
See you around. Gord
