back loop tips

[windsurf247]

So back loopers, I need some tips. I managed to pull off a bunch off back loop attempts yesterday in the raging winds of the Wild West I got around on most to the point where I was scooping the nose of the board into the water. They were all starboard jumps off of steep 3' - 4' ramps.
So now what??

I realize this is where it gets difficult but now that I've had a taste of it, I'm stoked to keep going. I'd love to get some tips to keep me moving forward.......or is it backwards?
Thanks

[winddoctor]

Nice work, Rob!

You only have 5,354 more attempts before you'll sail away from one .
I'm semi joking. Treat a backloop like a high jump. At the apex, look over your shoulder to spot your landing. Where your eyes and head are directed, your body will follow. Keep your back leg tucked under your butt and extend your front leg to get the board more vertical before landing. Voila! A stuck backloop!

Key points: Don't "huck" the loop around by rotating hard off the ramp; you'll just explode on impact and you'll never land one except by sheer luck this way. Get the float, spot your landing, and land dead downwind with the sail open a bit to avoid getting backwinded. Aim to go up and lose ALL forward speed before rotating. If you are under roating the loop, sheet in to speed it up and visa vis.

Easy to describe, but a b^tch to land consistently! So fun though! I'm surprised more guys aren't trying to get them dialled. It's one of the most satisfying feelings in windsurfing to land one.

[windsurf247]

Thanks WD. I'll give that a try. I probably was hucking them like you said. Can't wait to try some more I'll keep you posted on my progess.

[winddoctor]

Rob, i should mention that on short, steep ramps, you need to get some roation going off of the ramp to make it through the eye of the wind and still land rotated enough to the down wind point. However, on CB style or bigger head-on ramps, you need to do more of a high jump, then rotate. Much safer this way.

Backloops off of chop are incredibly tough to land, but not impossible! Spotting you landing probably has the highest impact on your success of all of the technique things you can do, as your body will trim the rig and board automatically in order to get you to where your eyes are looking! It's sort of like when you are mountainbiking on a nasty, rocky, rooty, sketchy downhill section. If you look at a hazard, you naturally steer towards it and crash, so in riding you look at the path you WANT to travel. The body gets you there. Learning backloops, there is a tendency to sort of space out and enjoy the sensation of the rotation without focussing on your landing. Look at photos of guys doing backloops. Eyes are always on the landing even at 30' up.

Last thing, you have to really 'want' to land it badly enough to stick one. It's easy to psych yourself out and bail every time even when you have the perfect rotation.

Ramble over!

[C36]

PREAMBLE

I really want to cross back loop off my “bucket list”, but it has proved a difficult task. I am note sure I am in the 1000's of tries, but I am well into the 100's for sure.

In the past my attempts go something like this: rotation starts the moment I leave the wave, not enough height, flat rotation, descending before the nose of the board is through the eye of the wind, re-enter the water with the board out to the side of my body, etc. A friend of mine once said to me, "That's no back loop, it's a 'Pelican'!", because of my tendency to have a flat rotation (what I like to call a frying pan rotation) and then knife into the water with my mast and body in a horizontal position.

But, I had a bit of an epiphany last fall (see below) and based on this new found glimmer of hope, here is what I am currently working on (all comments are welcome, as always). Please note, I wrote this before I saw this tread and was then encouraged to see some reinforcing comments in winddoctor’s comments.

YOU NEED HEIGHT
Yeah, but how do you get it?

The only time you want to rotate on take-off is on a really small wave. What I need to aim for is a ‘stock jump’ take-off (in the words of Levi Siver).

YOU NEED AN UP-DOWN ROTATION
Not a spin - unless the ramps are really small.

The ‘stock-jump’ will lead you naturally into the ‘up’ part of an ‘up-down’ rotation.

YOU NEED TO LAND STRAIGHT DOWNWIND

You need to land straight down-wind (at the end of your ‘up-down’ jump), with the board underneath you (not beside you). In the words of the announcer in the “Jump” video, “You need courage for a downwind landing!”

EXAMPLES

Here is one I have been watching (over and over and over again).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIYkIhsgzFE

Listen to what Scott Mckercher says at around 1:20 to the end:
1) Hit a steep ramp and get lots of height
2) Dump the power in the sail by stalling at the apex of the jump
3) Spot your landing (down wind)

K100 wrote a back loop tutorial (no longer on-line) that talked about going straight up and then straight down. The point I think he made is if you really do an ‘up-down’ loop, you will never over-rotate as you are coming down (not spinning). This makes sense, no?

MY EXPERIENCE

This is what I was trying to work on last fall in October at Centennial (the ‘up-down’ rotation) and in a couple of attempts, I was surprised at how the sail did depower near (and past) the apex of the jump – I also found myself surprised to see I had already started to come down because the rig was super light in my hands. Unfortunately I was so shocked at how much height I had rounding the apex with the ‘up-down’ launch and my new found position aiming straight down wind I bailed.

So what I am thinking is if I was to work on one thing (assuming I do a good job of wave selection and I remember to do the 'stock jump' part) is to (1) work on spotting the landing (based on some of winddoctors comments above); and (2) directing the board to the water (by extending front foot down toward the water while tucking the back foot up).

Sorry for the long post but I REALLY want to cross this one off my “bucket list”! Please let me know if you think - am headed in the right direction (or not)? Thanks.

/edit 2011 Aug 25 to remove dead link to K100 tutorial

[winddoctor]

Nice post, C36!

McKercher's 3 tips are spot on. One thing I've noticed in the good back loopers is that they keep the rig very close (bent front arm with front hand close to shoulder). I know I tend to stay too open with my arms (arms more extended), which doesn't give as many positional options, and therefore my attempts are more miss than hit. Keeping pretty tucked with the lower and upper body gives you better success on landing. I seem to make more landings when I remember to keep compact with the rig-to upper body distance.

A safer way to learn them higher is to rotate each backie progressively further toward that fully committed downwind landing zone. This will keep you from dreaded flat landings, piling into your gear, and will allow you to get a feel for controlling the rotation and spotting the landing. Under rotating a backie ends up just slapping you a bit on the hip and the rig falls down wind. When you get a feel for the move, then you can try for the full down wind landing and grit the teeth while you hang on tight. This is where you have to really want the clean landing and where most guys bail.

Backies offer one of the sweetest feelings in windsurfing!

[KUS]

the attempts are almost as satisfying and fun as the landings....tho I have only had two in about 2,000
For me it is all about the ramp, if it's not there you are wasting time. After about 1,000 you can figure that one.

Then, the landing: if you were nosing down you gotta want it....get mad, don't bail, the best jumps I have had is when I threw caution to the wind...literally. But the over rotations are a killer, going off a lip they are really hard to judge properly and you have to know when one will kill you or when you have a chance. Keep at it....but it really is all about the ramp...and yeah, stay upright and close spot that landing....float, don't force it. I don't think Centennial offers the best ramps tho CB however

[~~~~~4j~~]

Jem Hall has a Back Loop article in his Wannabe Wavesailor series. Unfortunately the photos seem to be corrupt. Please post if you have the PDF version.
http://boards.mpora.com/how-to/advanced ... -loop.html

I too would like to land one of these. Thanks for the good pointers.

[C36]

Thanks for the additional tips/article guys:

Up
> Ramp selection is key (Kus)
Apex
> Keep the rig close/body tucked (WD)
> Float, don’t force it (Kus)
Down
> Progress the rotation jump-by-jump, a little further each time to landing (WD)
> You have to real want the landing even on a ‘good’ rotation (Kus)

the attempts are almost as satisfying and fun as the landings...

Glad to hear this and a good reminder to 'enjoy the ride' and not get too frustrated at the landing/sailing away.

I don't think Centennial offers the best ramps tho CB however

I hear you (I hope to pop over to Columbia this fall) – we don’t have the best conditions for back loops here in the Lower Mainland, but I wanted to be clear about what I meant about by Centennial – I was talking about 3rd Street. As I am pretty sure you already know, there are four launches (in Canada) to Boundary Bay – from north to south they are Centennial Beach, 4th Street, 3rd Street and the boat launch.
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7642

CENTENNIAL – A FEW OBSERVATIONS

For the benefit of others, I have noticed the following in sailing at Centennial over the last 10+ years:

There seem to be two banks or shelves in this area – the first bank extends out about 1 km and the second bank extends out from about 1 km to 2km (off Centennial Beach at #5).

The water conditions (wind swell/waves/ramps) get better (bigger wind swell/waves/ramps) the further you go out until you hit the edge of the second bank and here they turn into deep water rolling swell – likely due to the ‘two bank’ effect. That’s why it is so hard to get a picture of what it feels like out in the ‘good stuff’, because it is so far out!

The best water conditions (wind swell/waves/ramps) seem to show up when the tide is about 3 m or higher and there is more water pushing over both banks.

The water conditions can very greatly from launch to launch on any given tide, but in general the nicest wind swell/waves/ramps can be found between 3rd Street and the boat launch (#3 and #2 on the map). Even on the same day the difference between Centennial Beach (#5) and 3rd Street (#3) can be dramatic.

More specifically the best sets can often be found breaking on what seems to be a small edge to the first bank which runs east-west just off the boat ramp. This spot can create a bit of peeling break (inside to outside) under the right conditions.

Even when 3rd Street sets up ‘just right’ you may have to watch for a ride out over both banks to get one wave face to stand up and say ‘back loop please’.

Back loops are possible at 3rd Street – I have seen Daniel (DD) land two in the last year alone (one he didn’t sail away from, but they were both pretty impressive).

THE LAST 12 MONTHS

I took a quick look back in my log to see how many days offered back loop practice opportunities. Acadia = 0 for 7 (it was a strange year for Acadia), and Centennial/3rd Street = 7 for 19 (or 37%) – not great odds, but it’s the best option I have (locally).

2010 Nov 17
example picture*
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7240
log entry
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7245

2010 Dec 26
example picture
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7412
log entry
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7422

2011 Mar 2
example picture
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7556
log entry
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7607

2011 Mar 12
example picture
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7622
log entry
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/7629

And here is one of the better shots from the previous spring (April 8, 2011)
http://thewindsurfer.com/?q=node/6467

*You can click on these, twice, with each time making the picture bigger. Sorry for the quality of the shots, but some were taken early morning in low light conditions.

Thanks again for the tips and encouragement!

[winddoctor]

No talk of forwards?

Edit: Anyone who can jump can learn to forward loop. Waaaaaay easier than backies. But ok, this is a backie thread. Hijack over.

[downwind dave]

See: epic forward thread

[Mike C]

Motivational speech for backloopers delivered by a 5 year old:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaIvk1cS ... e=youtu.be

[C36]

No talk of forwards?

Edit: Anyone who can jump can learn to forward loop. Waaaaaay easier than backies. But ok, this is a backie thread. Hijack over.

Still 'working' on forwards too.

See: epic forward thread

http://www.bigwavedave.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=721
http://www.bigwavedave.ca/phpBB2/viewto ... rward+loop
/\ I've read through both already - lots of good tips (links placed above for the convenience of others).

Motivational speech for backloopers delivered by a 5 year old:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaIvk1cS ... e=youtu.be

That's perfect - motivating is for sure!
I don't know about everyone else, but now I KNOW I can do it!

Best of all, I also now have a phrase to trigger the successful completion!
(I almost used the word "execution", but had second thoughts given Kus' reference to '..you have to know when one will kill you or when you have a chance" )
"Thumbs up everybody for rock 'n' roll"!
Although I might modify it for my own use, "Thumbs up everybody for back loops!"

It's funny how as kids we would try almost anything, but as adults we often stop before we even start - stopped by the risk of being embarrassed if we don't nail it and end up falling down.
"Success comes from good judgement. Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement!" - Tony Robbins

[thankgodiatepastafobreaky]

nice one Mike C!

[C36]

This video (some GO Pro shots) shows the different body positions (up, apex, down and landing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5WGmq5_MRk
Any thoughts?