New Hellfish Kite
For an in-depth review of the kite check out http://www.sevensports.com/ , they are a kite school/ test center based in the Florida Keys
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Alex
- Website Donor
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:59 pm
- Location: Victoria, BC
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This is the best comment I've seen regarding the Hellfish.
"Our approach is to improve the geometry of the kite along technically sound paths to increase the performance, range and safety. At the same time we investigate materials. There are a vast variety of available materials in the yachting industry (and others) that could be applied to kites. We have made test kites (including Raptures) using such materials and found interesting changes in performance but to date, nothing that approaches the gains made by the Rapture over a traditional inverted 'U' or that justify the extra cost. In kites or sails, claims of 20% reduction or improvement in anything that is even close to properly designed in the first place are simply 'hype.' 70-80% is extreme 'hype.' Some choose to take advantage of a lack of technical understanding by the customer thinking they will believe the 'hype.' At the same time, one could seek to improve 'image' by offering a limited-production, expensive and exotic product. In either case, these are marketing ploys, not R&D.
Points to remember:
1) High projected area kites are more efficient for a given size.
2) Stiffness in a tube goes as the 4th power of diameter - only linearly with material modulus.
3) Drag is for the most part induced (from creating lift.)
4) Wetted surface drag is proportional to size.
5) Form drag is due to geometry.
The Rapture, though having a relatively large T1 tube for added stiffness, is very fast for it's size and has remarkable upwind ability due to the combination of factors inherent in a high projected area kite. It also has unprecedented de-power and range for the same reasons. Reverse launch is simply an added bonus. A traditional inverted 'U' kite, no matter how expensive or exotic the materials, will have difficulty overcoming it's geometry. Since the Rapture (as publically documented by customers worldwide) replaces 2-3 inverted 'U' kites, it is an incredible deal cost-wise. At Windwing we are putting our R&D effort into advances in design to expand the range of safety, performance and versatility. We could always use more exotic and expensive materials but ultimately that route is at the customer's expense, not ours...
Best regards,
- Bill Hansen, WW R&D"
"Our approach is to improve the geometry of the kite along technically sound paths to increase the performance, range and safety. At the same time we investigate materials. There are a vast variety of available materials in the yachting industry (and others) that could be applied to kites. We have made test kites (including Raptures) using such materials and found interesting changes in performance but to date, nothing that approaches the gains made by the Rapture over a traditional inverted 'U' or that justify the extra cost. In kites or sails, claims of 20% reduction or improvement in anything that is even close to properly designed in the first place are simply 'hype.' 70-80% is extreme 'hype.' Some choose to take advantage of a lack of technical understanding by the customer thinking they will believe the 'hype.' At the same time, one could seek to improve 'image' by offering a limited-production, expensive and exotic product. In either case, these are marketing ploys, not R&D.
Points to remember:
1) High projected area kites are more efficient for a given size.
2) Stiffness in a tube goes as the 4th power of diameter - only linearly with material modulus.
3) Drag is for the most part induced (from creating lift.)
4) Wetted surface drag is proportional to size.
5) Form drag is due to geometry.
The Rapture, though having a relatively large T1 tube for added stiffness, is very fast for it's size and has remarkable upwind ability due to the combination of factors inherent in a high projected area kite. It also has unprecedented de-power and range for the same reasons. Reverse launch is simply an added bonus. A traditional inverted 'U' kite, no matter how expensive or exotic the materials, will have difficulty overcoming it's geometry. Since the Rapture (as publically documented by customers worldwide) replaces 2-3 inverted 'U' kites, it is an incredible deal cost-wise. At Windwing we are putting our R&D effort into advances in design to expand the range of safety, performance and versatility. We could always use more exotic and expensive materials but ultimately that route is at the customer's expense, not ours...
Best regards,
- Bill Hansen, WW R&D"
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Alex
- Website Donor
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:59 pm
- Location: Victoria, BC
- Been thanked: 1 time
I think the fact that a new material may be availiable that will improve kite performance is great. The fact that the material has "zero stretch" is phenominal.
Looking forward to testing this kite & if it provides "50%" better performance then Best will sell lots of kites. I have a feeling it this will not be the case.
Their low end claims are simply rediculous. There is simply not enough energy in the wind to make kiting possible in the winds they are claiming.
I don't see how the low end on these kites will be that great. They say this is due to the apparent wind it will generate. The problem is once you start going double or triple the wind speed the apparent wind direction will be directed closer and closer to 90 deg to the wind. And therefore be impossible to go upwind.
I think these kites will excel in the extremely large kites as they have relatively little drag and extremely light so will fly in less winds. In durability(but this is yet to be seen). Style(a matter or personal opinion). And feel(direct instant reaction; not good for the wakestyle kiter but great for jumpers and wave riders). Turning speed may also be increased but anything smaller than a 10m and designers are typically trying to slow down the turning speed.
And the new vid they posted is just sad!! Speeding up the video to make it look faster. Just plain cheezy.
Looking forward to testing this kite & if it provides "50%" better performance then Best will sell lots of kites. I have a feeling it this will not be the case.
Their low end claims are simply rediculous. There is simply not enough energy in the wind to make kiting possible in the winds they are claiming.
I don't see how the low end on these kites will be that great. They say this is due to the apparent wind it will generate. The problem is once you start going double or triple the wind speed the apparent wind direction will be directed closer and closer to 90 deg to the wind. And therefore be impossible to go upwind.
I think these kites will excel in the extremely large kites as they have relatively little drag and extremely light so will fly in less winds. In durability(but this is yet to be seen). Style(a matter or personal opinion). And feel(direct instant reaction; not good for the wakestyle kiter but great for jumpers and wave riders). Turning speed may also be increased but anything smaller than a 10m and designers are typically trying to slow down the turning speed.
And the new vid they posted is just sad!! Speeding up the video to make it look faster. Just plain cheezy.
Alex, how do you know the vid is sped up?
Maybe Best is trying upstage Windwing. Their Cuben kite is 45% more expensive than a Windwing Rapture however.
The big advantage of Cuben to me would be long term durability and no stretch. Other than that, new kites already turn great and jump great. I think rip stop bags out pretty quickly. It'd be a relief to own and be content with the same kite for 5 years like you could with a windsurfing sail.
The Cuben stuff is not what is used in sails so I doubt it will blow out, it's more like the type they use in aerospace.
It's a pity they haven't offered a better relaunch and safety system like windwing - proabably more important advances at this stage in the technology.
Maybe Best is trying upstage Windwing. Their Cuben kite is 45% more expensive than a Windwing Rapture however.
The big advantage of Cuben to me would be long term durability and no stretch. Other than that, new kites already turn great and jump great. I think rip stop bags out pretty quickly. It'd be a relief to own and be content with the same kite for 5 years like you could with a windsurfing sail.
The Cuben stuff is not what is used in sails so I doubt it will blow out, it's more like the type they use in aerospace.
It's a pity they haven't offered a better relaunch and safety system like windwing - proabably more important advances at this stage in the technology.
Signature Block.
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Guest
Guess I don't know that it is sped up but there are two zoomed in sections of just the kite where it appears to be sped up and one 3/4 of the way in of the rider as well. I could be completely off but it just looks sped up. The rest of the video appears to be normal.
I could have been just jumping to conclusions but its not sped up it certainly performs like a stunt kite.
If these kites last 5 years(or even 3) then they are definitely worth the extra expense.
I'm hoping what they claim is true but am not expecting it.
I could have been just jumping to conclusions but its not sped up it certainly performs like a stunt kite.
If these kites last 5 years(or even 3) then they are definitely worth the extra expense.
I'm hoping what they claim is true but am not expecting it.
I've got to say that when we had the Kite testival here in Cabarete last month, the Windwing Rapture seemed to be an innovative design. It is much different from other kites. Seems as though they were trying to make a kite similar to the old Gaastra G-spot (larger lateral canopy facing the rider). However, like the G-Spot, when this kite was tested it was no different than any of the other brands at the testival. The only kites that stood out from the rest of the pack were the F-One kites. We were limited to the 16 brands of kite that were at the testival but 16 is still a lot of testing.Alex wrote:This is the best comment I've seen regarding the Hellfish.
"Our approach is to improve the "
Again, I'm not trying to plug Best, as I said earlier I don't even fly them, I'm just trying to state some futher opinion related to the 2005 materials that were tested at the testival.
Extra note: Don't buy a Gaastra, our school retails them and they are garbage. We are giving them away as prizes and using them as much as possible for teaching because we have been so dissapointed with them this year.
Who the heck is "Yo Alex" ? And who are you referring to in your post? If you are taking about Alex above he's flown all the best kites and all the windwing kites, baring the hellfish.
I watched that video again and it seems the real close up of the kite could be sped up but right after that the rider does a slash back and some wake tricks with a kiteloop which to my lamen eye look realistic speed. During these parts, the kite is certainly turning very fast.
The thing'll be to try it out. All chatter now is nothing more than speculation. And a bit of excitement of course
I watched that video again and it seems the real close up of the kite could be sped up but right after that the rider does a slash back and some wake tricks with a kiteloop which to my lamen eye look realistic speed. During these parts, the kite is certainly turning very fast.
The thing'll be to try it out. All chatter now is nothing more than speculation. And a bit of excitement of course
Signature Block.
For another interesting note, I had dinner with Kim Tropf last night (Best distributor for the Dominican Republic). He says that Best has made an exclusive deal to attain Cuben Fiber. Therefore, if other companies decide to come up with something similar, they will have to go elsewhere (perhaps, like Alex said, they'll look to companies like dupont or 3m).
I have a feeling that this is what is really going to make things interesting. All kites have been, in most cases, very similar in the past. However, now companies re going to really have to prove that it is their design/material that works.
I have a feeling that this is what is really going to make things interesting. All kites have been, in most cases, very similar in the past. However, now companies re going to really have to prove that it is their design/material that works.
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guest
Hell fish
In their ad it says that the cuben fiber cloth is the shiny aluminum coloured cloth, what is the white cloth. If it is ripstop than after a few sailing session you are going to have an ugly kite. The shaping panels don't stretch but the body of the kite if made with ripstop will stretch than it will begin to billow behind the shaping panels. Just think about. The question is what is the other cloth that they are using in their kite.
