Sewage Treatment - Do we need it?

[Kite Kook]

Since all those posts were taking up room on the message board, and this is a topic more suited to the forum, I figured I would start this thread.

I think we should all educate ourselves as much as possible, because if treatment is needed, we should all be pushing our local politicians on the issue.

I know there are several of you out there who must have studied this, what is your opinion?

Dwd gave us an interesting link,
http://nisoftware.com/sewage-circus/index.html

"Party Pooper" gave the link to the health canada site,
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/water-e ... dex_e.html
although I did not find any info relevant to the victoria situation there.

Does anyone have a good summary of the arguments for or against treatment for Victoria?

Cheers,
Paul

[more force 4]

Well, I worked on the environmental assessment for the East Coast Interceptor back in the late 80s, and attended some meetings when projections of environmental effects were discussed. I'm not an expert in this area though. The long outfall seemed like a good idea at the time from what I heard then. I found it hard to find good information on this - the "Sewage Circus" paper was useful, and rang some memory bells, but is lacking references or hard data. I have read some of the environmentalist literature and, while it superficially seems more detailed and convincing, it often falls down under close scrutiny.

Human sewage is not really harmful so long as it is not too concentrated and the biological critters that exist to eat it can do their job. Its only when it causes too much plant growth that depletes oxygen, or allows nasty bacteria to become dense and get in drinking water that it is bad. From what I have read, none of these things are true at Clover Point. The deep ocean is actually biologically a desert, with very few animals because there is no source of nutrients. Sea life gets rich when it has enough to eat. Well folks.....

Cooks St ain't like the stuff they were pumping out of New Orleans, thats for sure.

On the other hand, I'd really like to know the density of sewage we gulp down by mistake a kilometer out from Dallas Road. (I certainly do cause I fall a lot and don't start very quickly). I've had a long-term ear infection this year, and it started not long after I started sailing at Cook. It sounds like a lot of other people may have had health problems. But I don't know if there is any cause-and-effect there. My ear may be just complaining about having water in it too often. Meningitis is a "kissing disease" isn't it, what were those two up to? Compared to Cook though, I suspect a swim in Elk Lake in the middle of the summer has a much higher chance of catching something from all the goose and duck crap floating in warm fresh water.

KSKK, can you add a poll to this thread to ask if people have got ear infections or other water-borne diseases and if they sail Cook much?

[voodmon]

just want to thank the kook street kite kook...my sentiments entirely]...i truly cannot say that i have got an infection or sick from the waters off kook st in the 14 years that i have spent windsurfing there..yes i did get something one year, but that was from gordons or jordan..and that probably came down the creek..also willows can be nasty sometimes, folks parked at the marina perhaps.....sooooorry i'm getting long winded again..i'll shush for now...but like i said last time...quite your bitchin...you people have no idea how good we actually have it here on this paradise island...it's always about the big picture..never forget that...TT out

[Pete]

Here is a bit of hard data. This is a link to reports on monthly water quality testing for the Clover and Macaulay Point outfalls conducted by the CRD. I haven’t hade a chance to go through all of it, but it sounds like 99% of the time the sewage will not even reach the surface.

http://www.crd.bc.ca/es/environmental_p ... eports.htm

This is an extract from the 2003 annual report “Results for the Clover Point outfall were similar to Macaulay Point. None of the 37 stations at Clover Point outfall exceeded the recreational criteria in 2003. Overall, the data indicated that the Clover Point outfall did not result in persistent fecal coliform contamination to the surrounding marine waters”.

This is not surprising because “fresher” water (mostly from the Fraser River) floats on the surface and acts like a lid trapping the sewage bellow the surface. So as long as you don’t dive down 10 or 15 m after catching some air you should be alright.

[Kite Kook]

Thanks for the input, I think this is an interesting issue.

I have added the poll question as requested by Mf4, but I am not sure how useful it will be. Personally, almost every time I get in a public pool, I get an ear infection. Yet, I don't from Cook St., despite spending lots of time in the water in the early years.

And what about the thousands of Victorians who get ear infections and infected cuts each year without stepping in the water? It would be good to have a control group to compare ourselves to, but now I am really geeking out...

[downwind dave]

i answered "no" but in truth i have suffered numerous maladys there including mysterious bruising, achey ribs and one nasty broken nose.
I think there are solid scientific reasons for non treatment, while arguments for treatment are primarialy ethical, or made using anecdotal comparisons to other communities. Victoria may be in a unique geo-ocean-ological position to pump primary only (screened) sewage into the ocean, but does that mean you should, that is the $300 million question. I dont live in victoria but would still likely be on the hook as a provincial taxpayer. remember the vast majority of victoriates dont recreate in the ocean and think you are mad for doing so.
I will say the comments about tampons and condoms in the water are overblown, ive seen the screener in operation and it does a decent job. you can help by not flushing anything you wouldnt want stuck on your fin or tangled on your line. i say you guys flush away and i will sail clear of the "boil" when i visit. the seagulls are fat and happy.

[more force 4]

I answered 'yes' but with strong reservations. Probably won't but useful other than to give people's pre-existing bias, but interesting.

I read that the seagulls are picking up congealed fat floating to the surface. EEEEUUUWWW!! Don't want that on my board or suit, even though it would be no health hazard. Not to self: jibe when you see lots of gulls ahead...

[Fish]

While this thread is a great topic, the survey question is somewhat flawed as it oversimplifies the epidemiology. Given that most of us are in the water frequently the odds of anyone gettign some sort of an infection "after sailing/kiting" is pretty much 100% as "after sailing/kiting" describes just about any given day of the year from the begining of march to...well, the end of february. Incubation periods (time from infection until symptoms show up) for fecally aquired diseases can range from less than a day to weeks dependign on the disease causing organism (bacterial, viral, protozoan), the dose (number of organisms ingested), and other factors such as the immune system of the individual. Concluding that the infection was aquired from sailing is another story.

About the only way to prove a cause and affect is to isolate a disease causign organism in a lab from a water sample taken on a sailign day, and then see how many folks who were in the water that day show up with that particular disease after the incuabation period. Verification would be done by lab confirmation of the same organism from a specimen taken from symptomatic sailors. Discoutnign any confounding factors (i.e. are we sure that the affected sailor/kiter wasn't the one who cotnaminated the water sample in the first place?) an association could then be shown.

Coliform counts don't really help us here either. Coliforms aren't neseessarily disease causing organisms, they are simply a group of bacteria that are ususally found where feces of warm blooded animals have been around. A seal, seas lion, whale or seagul, or bag of dog poo can leave a good dose of this in the water that can cause a spike in measurment, as can the presence other bacteria that have similar characteristics. Frequent high results can, however, indicate that there is some sort of bigger fecal problem going on, as it is clearly impractival to test water for all possible diseases.

While eye and ear infections are certainly possibilities, given this is sewage we are talking about I would probably be more Inclined to be on the lookout for gastrointestinal diseases with symptoms such as diarrhea or vomiting from such as salmonella, e.coli, shigella, cryptosporiduium etc.

I'm not sayiing Cook street aquired infections don't happen, or that there is nothing to be concerned about, I'm just saying showing cause and effect is very difficult. I've delionded to answer, but let the debate on the ethics of sewage disposal continue.

[KUS]

hmmm, yeah, so there, what fish said

I voted "no" cuz I think we were after clearly related events which I cannot myself insist on or prove. I have started, after years of no issues, getting ear/sinus infections in the last 3 yrs (of increased sailing days), usually during hi humidity times (this makes some sense), tried resolving with mega doses of antibiotics but in the end tylenolXtra strength cold in tandem with nose spray (very important) for 2-3 days 2-3x/day clears things up way better than any of the AntiBio crap I took. Give it a try next time, never believed it myself until I did it.

Not sure about causes but to blame Kook (it is one of 3 main sailing spots for me, ~15-20 per year, Willows is similar) seems a huge stretch, any water in the ear from a number of sources (pool, lake etc) could have similar effects. Personally I get the dry heaves from Nitinat almost instantly now from very small ingestion of drops of water running down my face....I think age and predisposition play a huge role, not the sewage or its minute levels....

I echo the sentiments: 2ndary treatment is ethically the right thing and a political platform but I doubt we can impact nature with natural biodegradable effluent in our situation of massive ocean flooding; keep on flushing & screening only but watch what you dump in there manually. Anyone dumping meds or haz mats into the sewer should be ashamed

[AC]

I think as the population grows around victoria we are going to to have to do something.
Maybe now we are ok now but in a few years there are going to be alot more SHIT . In the water

[morewind]

I voted No. Compared to other places I've sailed Kook seems clean. When I sail the Gorge I get the dreaded "river nose" and have to wear nose plugs to keep the sludge-like water out of my nose. I find Nitinat often plugs up my sinuses, particularly early season. Have never had this problem at Kook.

[local]

If you vote no for sewage treatment , then let me come to YOUR house and I`ll leave something for you in YOUR bath. It`s not even worth the debate.Clean vs polluted? I guess air pollution is OK too. Never caused me no problems. Why should we waste money on clean vehicles.It`s kind of like smoking,we won`t realize the damage done till it`s too late.

[Guest]

agreed... what gets me is people who "don't believe" in global warming... its just an excuse

[Guest]

Hey local and guest, at least you could sign your names. If it was the same density as a dump in the bath, no that wouldn't be good. BUt it aint. And if you think secondary treatment is completely environmentally friendly, read the first link (circus) in the thread. It isn't nearly as simplistic as you make out. My family doesn't contribute to any problem there - we have a septic system in good working order. The land bacteria do what the sea bacteria do off Clover.

[Guest]

Hey local and guest, at least you could sign your names.
Sorry, maybe you did, my reply didn't show as logged in either!