Wingfoiling Progression

KC7777 · Post by **KC7777** » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:30 pm

Ok....just read both Wing Foil forum discussions.

A couple of questions.

Looking to potentially get into Wing Foiling....really only if it makes sense for a watersport in the lighter wind areas where I hang out in summers....eg we stay on waterfront at Hornby Island most of July and Kootenay Lake most of August.

Hornby often has a steady 10-12 summer breeze in Lambert Channel, would launch from the Hornby ferry spit across to Denman.

At Kootenay Lake we stay right on the lake and its breezy...eg 7-10 most days, very long reach (3 km), with decently steady wind with very smooth rippled water. I would need to paddle out a bit as the wind becomes steadier about 100m offshore (we’re in a bit of a bay).

We have a ski boat that I could practice behind for foiling.

Also got a 11'2" SUP to practice winging on.

Me: 165 lbs, windsurfing experience, some SUP surfing, limited ws foil experience.

Thinking of the following for a Wing Foil set up....for light winds (for now)....and maybe the odd foil SUP surfing on small waves:

Wing Board: I like the looks of the Armstrong 6'6" (132L)...ya I know its big (I'm around 77kg in rubber). I know most will say go smaller. But the goal is to ultimately just cruise around on a Wing in low winds and I want to learn...quickly, in lighter winds. And the Armstrong board chart shows the 6'6" Wing SUP as the suitable SUP size for my weight for foil SUP surfing.

Say I need smaller wing after learning....sell the big wing for $500, buy a new smaller wing for $1,000....so out $500...but I bet the bigger wing reduces learning time by `3-5 hours....well worth it ?

Wing: Armstrong A-Wing 5.5M or Duotone Echo 5.0M?

Mast: go right to the Armstrong M85 (ie not the M72)? Will it matter in really flat water?

Foil:....hmmm.... HS1850 for all around....or.....the CF2400? I saw a vid of a guy learning on the Armstrong 6'6" and the huge CF2400 front foil wing. Seemed pretty stable and much easier to learn on. Slower yes. But not looking for speed or jumps. Could always add a smaller, higher-aspect front wing later. My goal is NOT high speed right now. I can do that windsurf foiling on my AFS foil. If the light wind works then would get a smaller HS front wing and smaller tail wing?

Re the rest of the Armstrong foil set-up...the TC60 fuselage and HS232 tail wing seem a no brainer for the 1850. Not sure with the CF2400, maybe the CF300 tail wing?

And WTF? is Armstrong's A+ system...are their new fuselage's the A+ system. The retrofit video drilling into the carbon wings looks sketch?

Sorry if any questions seem stupid. Just started researching. I'm gonna talk to Armstrong too. Dang it’s pricey. I'd be selling a flatwater or surf SUP to finance a few of the $.

PS....here's a vid talking about the huge CF2400....he talks about using a giant front wing at 1:37 for low speed, high lift when learning wing foiling in light winds? And at 1:58 is the breezy conditions we often see on Kootenay Lake in summer? Which is why I'm looking for a light wind set up.

Thoughts/comments appreciated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xei291TON-0

Thanks,

Keith

tempy · Post by **tempy** » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:12 am

get a smaller board, Keth. you won’t regret it.

winddoctor · Post by **winddoctor** » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:45 am

KC7777 wrote:Ok....just read both Wing Foil forum discussions.

A couple of questions.

Looking to potentially get into Wing Foiling....really only if it makes sense for a watersport in the lighter wind areas where I hang out in summers....eg we stay on waterfront at Hornby Island most of July and Kootenay Lake most of August.

Hornby often has a steady 10-12 summer breeze in Lambert Channel, would launch from the Hornby ferry spit across to Denman.

At Kootenay Lake we stay right on the lake and its breezy...eg 7-10 most days, very long reach (3 km), with decently steady wind with very smooth rippled water. I would need to paddle out a bit as the wind becomes steadier about 100m offshore (we’re in a bit of a bay).

We have a ski boat that I could practice behind for foiling.

Also got a 11'2" SUP to practice winging on.

Me: 165 lbs, windsurfing experience, some SUP surfing, limited ws foil experience.

Thinking of the following for a Wing Foil set up....for light winds (for now)....and maybe the odd foil SUP surfing on small waves:

Wing Board: I like the looks of the Armstrong 6'6" (132L)...ya I know its big (I'm around 77kg in rubber). I know most will say go smaller. But the goal is to ultimately just cruise around on a Wing in low winds and I want to learn...quickly, in lighter winds. And the Armstrong board chart shows the 6'6" Wing SUP as the suitable SUP size for my weight for foil SUP surfing.

Say I need smaller wing after learning....sell the big wing for $500, buy a new smaller wing for $1,000....so out $500...but I bet the bigger wing reduces learning time by `3-5 hours....well worth it ?

Wing: Armstrong A-Wing 5.5M or Duotone Echo 5.0M?

Either would be nice, but you're wanting low end punch so go 6M for either.

Mast: go right to the Armstrong M85 (ie not the M72)? Will it matter in really flat water?

M85. Yes, length makes a difference as you breach less.

Foil:....hmmm.... HS1850 for all around....or.....the CF2400? I saw a vid of a guy learning on the Armstrong 6'6" and the huge CF2400 front foil wing. Seemed pretty stable and much easier to learn on. Slower yes. But not looking for speed or jumps. Could always add a smaller, higher-aspect front wing later. My goal is NOT high speed right now. I can do that windsurf foiling on my AFS foil. If the light wind works then would get a smaller HS front wing and smaller tail wing?

The 2400 will get you up in very light air but the 1850 won't be too far behind and will be faster, but you need a little technique (won't take long). Slow is boring super quickly. The 6.6 will be a great, stable board and will get you progressing very fast. It's super light. But be careful with it off the water like any carbon board.

Re the rest of the Armstrong foil set-up...the TC60 fuselage and HS232 tail wing seem a no brainer for the 1850. Not sure with the CF2400, maybe the CF300 tail wing?

CF300 will give you more low end, more stability, more drag.

And WTF? is Armstrong's A+ system...are their new fuselage's the A+ system. The retrofit video drilling into the carbon wings looks sketch?

The A+ system addresses a potential long-term wear issue with the fuse to wing connection. It adds a few more screws or barrel nuts to prevent any potential unwanted play and strengthens the system for hard jumping/high aspect wing loads. The new fuses are the A+ ones. The old system is just fine for most users, is forward compatible with the new wings and still kicks ass. There are a few simple tricks to make the old system play-free (if there is any).

Sorry if any questions seem stupid. Just started researching. I'm gonna talk to Armstrong too. Dang it’s pricey. I'd be selling a flatwater or surf SUP to finance a few of the $.

PS....here's a vid talking about the huge CF2400....he talks about using a giant front wing at 1:37 for low speed, high lift when learning wing foiling in light winds? And at 1:58 is the breezy conditions we often see on Kootenay Lake in summer? Which is why I'm looking for a light wind set up.

Thoughts/comments appreciated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xei291TON-0

Thanks,

Keith

juandesooka · Post by **juandesooka** » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:54 am

I am in love with winging as much as anyone, but I still find it a little iffy in light winds. At 10-12kt, kitefoil is most efficient, windfoil is close second. When winging isn't easy, it can be hard work. It's doable but the fun to work ratio is higher in other things.

Counterpoint on board: for what you want you want to do, my opinion is a small board offers negligible benefits but costs big frustrations for learning and on the wrong day. SuperDave is on that board and RIPPING, say no more.

Cost: Armstrong is super rad, considered to be among the best in quality and the prices show it. They are the BMW of foil world; but there are plenty of Toyota and Honda equivalents that get the job done for a lower price. For foils, if I was starting from scratch, I think Axis offers the best quality/price package.

For boards, they are expensive no matter what, but I don't think Armstrong is any better than any of the others...but then I am cynical about boards, as a lot of hype goes into something spends most of its time flying in the sky. There is starting to be a design divide in wing-specific features vs SUP foil specific.

For wings, into Gen2/Gen3, they are approaching equivalency, there's no clear dogs any more, seems they all get the job done, so it's largely about price and preferred features. Shout out to Ocean Rodeo as the local option, innovating on new lighter materials (Alula), looking forward to getting my hands on one. :-)

smartang · Post by **smartang** » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:36 am

No bottom carry handle on the armstrong. Which I find often puts your wing closer to your hydrofoil when carrying. Especially with a big board and big foil.

I really like my Moses 1100 (2100cm2) on sproat lake light wind thermals with a bigger board (JP 6'8" 96L (I weight 93kg in the winter)). Especially when the wind dies and you're waiting for a puff. Nice to have a board big enough to track on the water to limp home. I don't notice that either the board or foil are cumbersome in lighter conditions. But they become more difficult to turn in higher winds. Have had the same setup out in 45 knots.

Go for the 85cm mast. Even though you don't need it, it's nice to start higher up when learning to pump and having a little extra mast for the increased lift during transitions. Especially tight tacks on foil.

The biggest drawback I find from the bigger hydrofoil, other than top speed, is upwind. More drag will transfer through into your arms as well when the wind picks up.

Tsawwassen · Post by **Tsawwassen** » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:46 pm

Video from Friday. Still a long way to go but it's fun learning. I need to work on my transitions and pumping. Yesterday was a good day to practice switch at the ferry terminal, lots of wind! Once I get switch sailing down I think that will be a game changer.

https://vimeo.com/535608853

BigD · Post by **BigD** » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:01 pm

Slightly off topic but... Winddoc do you think the HS1850 would cross over to windfoiling as a dual purpose wing or would it be too slow? Armstrong doesn't seem very interested in windfoiling, too bad as as crossover wing would take some of the bite out of the pocket book and their foils look sexy

winddoctor · Post by **winddoctor** » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:33 pm

BigD wrote:Slightly off topic but... Winddoc do you think the HS1850 would cross over to windfoiling as a dual purpose wing or would it be too slow? Armstrong doesn't seem very interested in windfoiling, too bad as as crossover wing would take some of the bite out of the pocket book and their foils look sexy

I think the 1850 could be used as a dual purpose wing but it seems a bit overkill for wind foiling. I wouldn't call it slow at all. It cruises on a wing foil close to 30 km/h according to my watch if pushed and will go faster flagged out on a wave. I think a HS1550 V2 or HS1250 would be better as dual purpose wings than the 1850 but you'd lose a little low end on the wing side of things.

superdave · Post by **superdave** » Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:26 am

KC7777 wrote:

Ok....just read both Wing Foil forum discussions.

A couple of questions.

Looking to potentially get into Wing Foiling....really only if it makes sense for a watersport in the lighter wind areas where I hang out in summers....eg we stay on waterfront at Hornby Island most of July and Kootenay Lake most of August.

Hornby often has a steady 10-12 summer breeze in Lambert Channel, would launch from the Hornby ferry spit across to Denman.

At Kootenay Lake we stay right on the lake and its breezy...eg 7-10 most days, very long reach (3 km), with decently steady wind with very smooth rippled water. I would need to paddle out a bit as the wind becomes steadier about 100m offshore (we’re in a bit of a bay).

We have a ski boat that I could practice behind for foiling.

Also got a 11'2" SUP to practice winging on.

Me: 165 lbs, windsurfing experience, some SUP surfing, limited ws foil experience.

Thinking of the following for a Wing Foil set up....for light winds (for now)....and maybe the odd foil SUP surfing on small waves:

Wing Board: I like the looks of the Armstrong 6'6" (132L)...ya I know its big (I'm around 77kg in rubber). I know most will say go smaller. But the goal is to ultimately just cruise around on a Wing in low winds and I want to learn...quickly, in lighter winds. And the Armstrong board chart shows the 6'6" Wing SUP as the suitable SUP size for my weight for foil SUP surfing.

Say I need smaller wing after learning....sell the big wing for $500, buy a new smaller wing for $1,000....so out $500...but I bet the bigger wing reduces learning time by `3-5 hours....well worth it ?

Wing: Armstrong A-Wing 5.5M or Duotone Echo 5.0M?

Mast: go right to the Armstrong M85 (ie not the M72)? Will it matter in really flat water?

Foil:....hmmm.... HS1850 for all around....or.....the CF2400? I saw a vid of a guy learning on the Armstrong 6'6" and the huge CF2400 front foil wing. Seemed pretty stable and much easier to learn on. Slower yes. But not looking for speed or jumps. Could always add a smaller, higher-aspect front wing later. My goal is NOT high speed right now. I can do that windsurf foiling on my AFS foil. If the light wind works then would get a smaller HS front wing and smaller tail wing?

Re the rest of the Armstrong foil set-up...the TC60 fuselage and HS232 tail wing seem a no brainer for the 1850. Not sure with the CF2400, maybe the CF300 tail wing?

And WTF? is Armstrong's A+ system...are their new fuselage's the A+ system. The retrofit video drilling into the carbon wings looks sketch?

Sorry if any questions seem stupid. Just started researching. I'm gonna talk to Armstrong too. Dang it’s pricey. I'd be selling a flatwater or surf SUP to finance a few of the $.

PS....here's a vid talking about the huge CF2400....he talks about using a giant front wing at 1:37 for low speed, high lift when learning wing foiling in light winds? And at 1:58 is the breezy conditions we often see on Kootenay Lake in summer? Which is why I'm looking for a light wind set up.

Thoughts/comments appreciated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xei291TON-0

Thanks,

Keith

Hey Keith, get into winging. I've got the Armstrong 6'6" (100kg wet) and 3.5 m and 4.5 m A-Wings so thought I'd chime in. I wanted a big stable board that could be used for winging/SUP foil. The 6'6" is strong and light. The carbon is high quality and the bottom and rails are extremely ding resistant for a board of its weight. The top of the board outside the deck pad is much softer (inegra glass I think) and will end up with shallow dents from face plants. I totally believe in the shape of the 6'6" - it just works so well off foil and on. I can't believe how many times I've touched down on the tops of swells when pumping and just bounced off the ocean. Same for the rails, tapped the surface so many times on jibes in lighter wind and the board just doesn't stick to the water. I think it's a light wind weapon...to be determined in the coming months!

Wing size/brand is a tough one and I have pretty limited experience with different brands (Ozone V1 4 m was my first wing). Increased size and weight are not good attributes (ALUULA anyone?). I expect you might find the 5.5 m Armstrong to be a bit big and heavy (especially for learning), but possibly necessary to go into the 7 knot range. A smaller wing will be much easier to pump, so the low end performance gap narrows. The smaller wing will also be easier to handle through transitions, which will reduce crashes and re-starts. There is probably only a 2-3 knots improvement in low end with each size of the A-Wing and each size up is noticeably heavier. I would lean towards a 4.5 m A-Wing for your weight, it's a very powerful wing. I know the channel at Hornby and I expect I could get going on my 3.5 m most days thanks to my big board...and if I couldn't at least I could float back to the beach.

I don't have Armstrong foils but the 2400 is a big foil with some drag for sure, especially the V1. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pump up on the HS1850 in less wind once you have your technique dialed. Definitely go 85 cm mast.

KC7777 · Post by **KC7777** » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:30 am

superdave wrote:Hey Keith, get into winging. I've got the Armstrong 6'6" (100kg wet) and 3.5 m and 4.5 m A-Wings so thought I'd chime in. I wanted a big stable board that could be used for winging/SUP foil. The 6'6" is strong and light. The carbon is high quality and the bottom and rails are extremely ding resistant for a board of its weight. The top of the board outside the deck pad is much softer (inegra glass I think) and will end up with shallow dents from face plants. I totally believe in the shape of the 6'6" - it just works so well off foil and on. I can't believe how many times I've touched down on the tops of swells when pumping and just bounced off the ocean. Same for the rails, tapped the surface so many times on jibes in lighter wind and the board just doesn't stick to the water. I think it's a light wind weapon...to be determined in the coming months!

Wing size/brand is a tough one and I have pretty limited experience with different brands (Ozone V1 4 m was my first wing). Increased size and weight are not good attributes (ALUULA anyone?). I expect you might find the 5.5 m Armstrong to be a bit big and heavy (especially for learning), but possibly necessary to go into the 7 knot range. A smaller wing will be much easier to pump, so the low end performance gap narrows. The smaller wing will also be easier to handle through transitions, which will reduce crashes and re-starts. There is probably only a 2-3 knots improvement in low end with each size of the A-Wing and each size up is noticeably heavier. I would lean towards a 4.5 m A-Wing for your weight, it's a very powerful wing. I know the channel at Hornby and I expect I could get going on my 3.5 m most days thanks to my big board...and if I couldn't at least I could float back to the beach.

I don't have Armstrong foils but the 2400 is a big foil with some drag for sure, especially the V1. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pump up on the HS1850 in less wind once you have your technique dialed. Definitely go 85 cm mast.

Thanks for the info Dave...you too WDoc and juan

My research is continuing. Still on the fence. And who even knows re supply this year?

Re board size and wing size:

I've always been a bigger board + smaller sail type...and played around with various fin sizes/combinations depending on the wind. eg at Nitinat I would be on a short, wide, 105L or 115L tri-fin freestyle wave windsurf board, and a 4.8M sail, with inboard footstraps (more upright stance), and still ripping, when guys were out beside me on narrower 90L boards and 5.3-6.0M sails. They were not that much faster. Or if it nuked, I could be on a 96L tri fin, with really small 8cm side fins and a 4.2M. It worked. And I like that "feel" of planing with ease, vs locked in hanging on just to get an extra few km/h. Also made jibing so much easier. I never got why so many ws sailors would never "over board and under sail"?

I was thinking the same concept applied to wing foiling....~130L big wing board, and ~5.0M wing. With a big foil that has lots of low end. Can always buy another front wing if I want to go smaller wing/higher winds.

Ya this shit is pricey. Don't care right now. I've been really lucky during Covid as my income increased. I've done a lot of contract video work and online teaching for CPA, as they went fully online, started an online CPA bookkeeping firm in 2019...which was perfect timing for an online firm; shameless plug here... www.forefrontconsulting.ca ... and like everyone else have spent $0 in the last year with no commute and no travel and no ws gear (...actually been a net seller of ws gear in the last few years).....time to catch up as this winging sport is looking expensive?

Or do I say f' it and just windurf foil in light winds as I have the gear? Seems kind of a shame as I spend so much time near the water.

Some other wing foiling questions....

Wing size...you might be right superdave on the 5.5-6.0M being big? And I'm not that heavy/tall? Over-board and under-sail is the combo I want. Gonna look at a Duotone Echo 5.0M tomorrow.

Foil....still leaning Armstrong for the foil system (they just seem to have it dialed with mast, tail, front wing combo/options). I'm leaning huge (CF2400) for learning, and for super low wind ~8-10.

Boards...no idea, but leaning bigger vs smaller. The 6'6" Armstrong Wing SUP looks nice. But is it worth the extra $1,000 vs a Quattro Wing Drifter or Starboard Wing Board or Fanatic Sky Wing.

And why did Quattro call it a "drifter"....which brings up my question re schlogging on a wing. If I schlog on my Fanatic Blast Foil windsurf board, cause it's 145L and the foil acts like a huge fin, it's easy to bury the windward rail and get back upwind to where I started, in non-planing conditions. You can even hook in to save your arms.

Question re getting back home when underpowered on wing foils...I assume its hard.

With wings....I'm assuming they don't go upwind unless you are at least powered a bit, and/or up on the foil? How do you get back home? Lay down and prone paddle? Should I bring a paddle!?

Or just wait for the boat, or do downwinders at first...eg get dropped to launch at Ford Cove on Hornby and land downwind at the ferry spit for pick up?

Thanks,

AJSpencer · Post by **AJSpencer** » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:49 am

KC, my two cents:
I currently use 145L windfoil board (Dialer) w/ 5m Duotone early version wing (no strut, 100% boom, sinky clew/boom). Foil is slingshot tall mast w/ 84 big front wing.
Must say it really feels like a good set-up for learning, though under 15 knot it doesn't feel like I could even pump onto foil, but I'm kook. For board leash I modified attachment for retractable leash to a t-bolt into the mast track which is super strong.
I have a Naish Hover 122L on the shelf, waiting to use that once I get my gybes down on the 145L.
I felt like with some more skill, I could ride waves no problem with the 145L and 84cm foil.
I have a smaller wing (3.5m Duotone Slick) coming and I'm hoping the 3.5m and 5m wings will be all I need from 15-35knots.
Under 15, for the 10-15 range i'm thinking my 7.0 Flyer and windfoil is the only way I'll get going under 15 knots and down to 12ish with waves. Under 10, I probably need to lose some weight.

Under 5knots the wing is a burden, get ready to go onto stomach and paddle, which I haven't had to do yet and don't want to because my board is so wide. Can slog with a windfoil set-up, but won't want to be somewhere far from shore if the wind tanks to less than 5 with a wing I think. But 5 knots and more, I find I can slog on my knees, or standing, upwind a bit.

firstonlastoff · Post by **firstonlastoff** » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:58 am

I just sold off all of my really big ( traditional ) gear. Hadn't used that in about three years or so. Just have two wave boards and several small windsurfing sails left in my basement, and I will keep that gear and keep sailing it.

I am watching and lurking. All foiling looks like fun, just the dollar barrier & recent border closures are why I am hesitating buying in. I definitely like the smaller boards for wing-foiling and wind-foiling.

I really want to be abler to ride in the usual summer breeze wind strength at Jericho, so that will be the ultimate decider for me, either wing or wind foiling.

@KC7777, my ski quiver is now almost as big as my wave sail quiver. Where did I learn to do that ? I didn't get a single day in at the frozen water places in BC that have power-on-the-up services, all self-powered locales for me this winter ! Bibby Tour and Shifts !

BigD · Post by **BigD** » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:18 am

I have recent video footage of wingfoilers drifting downwind and windfoilers jibing around them in about 12-14 knots. They probably needed bigger foils but one of the wings was a 6.0m and looked like spry 30 somethings, not big dudes.

I think the summer breeze at Jericho might not quite be enough for wings but works for wind foils with 7.0-8.5 if you're willing to go that big. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like a 15knot minimum for wings? Thoughts?

KC7777 · Post by **KC7777** » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:28 am

firstonlastoff wrote:I just sold off all of my really big ( traditional ) gear. Hadn't used that in about three years or so. Just have two wave boards and several small windsurfing sails left in my basement, and I will keep that gear and keep sailing it.

I am watching and lurking. All foiling looks like fun, just the dollar barrier & recent border closures are why I am hesitating buying in. I definitely like the smaller boards for wing-foiling and wind-foiling.

I really want to be abler to ride in the usual summer breeze wind strength at Jericho, so that will be the ultimate decider for me, either wing or wind foiling.

@KC7777, my ski quiver is now almost as big as my wave sail quiver. Where did I learn to do that ? I didn't get a single day in at the frozen water places in BC that have power-on-the-up services, all self-powered locales for me this winter ! Bibby Tour and Shifts !

I so loved the Moment Bibbys, great skis...nice you got Shifts. I have Elan Ripsticks with Salomon Shifts for slackcountry. Shifts ski well. Ripsticks are awesomely light but stiff ski. Plus about 5 other various pairs for inbounds. This past season I was lucky to get 42 inbounds days at Whistler Blackcomb before the abrupt shut-down. Even had some Baker-like pow days there. Hampered a bit by a torn MCL from skiing off a cliff in early January. My wife Dagne got 50+ days in. Pretty epic season given the pandemic You and I should tour together next year?!

My windsurfing quiver is down to: a 2015 96L Fanatic Freewave Tri fin board, a 2018 145L Fanatic Blast foil windsurfing board and 3 Saillworks sails; 4.8M, 5.3M and 6.2M Revos....pretty lean for me for windsurfing!

Re wing foiling...I'm fighting between "just buy it" and "don't just jump into expensive gear like KC7777 did in the old days".....

more force 4 · Post by **more force 4** » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:31 pm

KC7777 wrote: Re wing foiling...I'm fighting between "just buy it" and "don't just jump into expensive gear like KC7777 did in the old days".....

Common, Sevens, you know you want to! And the rest of us get to get good deals on lightly used gear!!

Seriously, i have a son in law and grandson who are expressing interest in winging but only want to do it in low wind (not sure really why, it would be mostly from anchored sailboat (Desolation Sound or on Slocan Lake where the wind is typically light). I'm pushing the idea of a big foil and floaty board and smaller but gruntier wing.

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