Asking for a friend.

Okay, this WING - Foiling is interesting but I'm still a bit skeptical. I've been watching some video's and it looks like (with skillz) you can pump the Wing and the Board better than a Windfoil board and sail.? Thoughts.? BWD/Twizz/AJ etc those that have Wind and Wing foiled..??

okay, question for all....
What amount of wind is needed (once you're skilled enough at pumping) to get going.? Using a 5m or 6m Wing (as that seems to be the 'go to' size) with a good sized foil....something like 1700cm2. I understand that personal skill and board size/shapes make a difference as well.....I"m just looking for feedback from those of you Winging, how much wind do you need to get going..?? 15kts, 10kts, 8kts......less..?? I'm not looking for info on Wings bigger than 6m.

For Wind-foiling, I'd say I need 9-10kts for my 7.0m and 1100 front foil and a bunch of pumping but once up maybe 7-8kts to keep going and be able to gybe and stay foiling.

I would appreciate as much feedback as possible, I'd like to know your thoughts because Christmas is coming......

B.

Wingfoil:
I can usually get going in 10-12knots with my 5m wing and my 1430cm2 Axis 1010 wing and 90l board. Maybe slightly less wind on ULR's Axis 1150 (1700cm2). Different wings seem to have a little different low ends and pumpability (and their quoted sizes vary make to make). Same for foils. You can pump a wing board up and down getting the foil to work in your favour better than on a windfoil board. Bigger is better to a point for the foil, board, and wing for low-end. Optimal for your low-end Bobson is probably 6m wing, 100-115l board and a 1500-2000cm2 foil. Optimal all round is up for debate. I like my 5m, 90l, 1300cm2 setup and I added the 3.5m wing for the plus 25knot days. I'm 74kg. A lot of guys are going smaller on the foils - back to windfoil sizes and shapes: 1200 down to 800 or 900, thinner profile, and higher aspect ratio for speed and glide.

Windfoil:
I have yet to experiment on the windfoil with foils larger than 1000cm2 to see what the low end is with say a 4.5m sail. My lowest windfoilable wind was around 8 knots with the 180l formula board, 9.0m and 1000 or 800cm2 foil. So many variables to test!

For winging fun factor, most people are chasing the wave riding, so the wind low end isn't that important because there are no waves to ride (unless you are prone or tow foiling and then you can skip the wind/wing altogether!)
Tweeze

I don't have the experience to comment on your specific questions with any authority but if you wanted to give winging a go on my 147L board with the 6m you'd be welcome to. It certainly makes a difference having that big, wide platform to start on. Pain in the ass getting in and out of the water with it is all.

I'm guessing/anticipating winging is going to be something I'll be glad I've gone into but it will be as much or more for the ease of use, carrying, transport, and storage aspects as the actual activity itself. Windfoiling is pretty fun but it's a lot more hassle. My decision to move was more practical than anything but I do look forward to the flowy wave riding when I'm ready to do so. Wingfoiling seems to be 'more difficult but not as complex' compared to windfoiling (and certainly kitefoiling). That's how I've been describing it based on just the 2 sessions so far. You'll be going in a single session with the 147 as an introduction to it and, given the time you spend on the water, you'd be going pretty quickly with a 115/110 or similar board too, I'm sure!

If you can afford to have both set-ups initially, that will be ideal. If it requires a wholesale swap from one to the other, there's clearly a lot of fun to be had with your windfoiling gear and skills; especially as your stud factor will be greatly diminished for some time while you learn the winging!

Here's my experience:

I windfoil on a Wizard 125L board most often with a 7.3 non-cambered sail and 2066cm Slingshot Infinity 84cm. I like to see at gusts to at least 13 knots on my local wind sensor before I go out with it. A solid 10 knots is pretty much useless, but with the gusts to 13ish I can get going then probably keep flying in 7 or 8 knots. Water surface conditions also play a huuuge part in how early I can get going. If the wind has been blowing for hours it's going to be way harder to get going in light winds if there's as solid chop in place. If the wind just came up or, if I'm downwind of a sandbar at low tide, I'll have a much easier time getting going. Your mileage may vary, the same thing applies to winging in higher winds.

Last year I started using this board to wingfoil it was an excellent learning platform. To make it even better I got tracks added further forwards on it, the help but are not necessary. To have fun on this same board and with my biggest wing, a Crosswing 6.2 I would want a solid 15 knots. Even then I still won't be ripping upwind nearly as hard as I would with a windfoil sail. Sails are just so much more efficient in light wind, it's no contest. Given that I live in Vancouver where the wind is soooo bad 90% of the time, I keep the windfoiling gear to get the lightwind days on the water that I wouldn't even bother with to wingfoil.

Winging is excellent fun in shortboard windsurfing conditions, especially with swells, but for lightwinds it's always going to be windfoiling for me.

I have been using a 4.5 m slick since September with a 2000 sq.cm foil and its been amazing. The wind range has been gusts of 14 knots on average with the lull being around 11 or less. The best thing about winging I find is that I can set up, go out for an hour and pack up before most guys decide what sail to use.....
For a bit more wind I drop down to my 1750 HA foil. But Im not in the realm of wave riding yet, or smaller foils. Just trying to deal with my old wetsuit taking on water........Soooooo much fun!!!!!

Is ultralight wind foiling your goal? If so you should focus your board and foil choices toward those conditions. With a narrow downwind sup like the kalama e3 6'6 and a wide high aspect foil you should be able to get going in ~6kn. I also like a 42" mast for extra hand wing clearance and longer lull glide. Though, I have no idea how to judge wind anymore. Every time I come off the water thinking the gusts must have been close to 40kn, and then read the windsurfer logs saying it was 22-28kn. All I know is that I can easily (1-4 jump pumps) get up in less than 10kn on a par volume board (90kg summer, 100kg winter), with the moses 2100 and 6m wing. If I there's swell in the right direction, that could be a 4m wing. Wrong direction, 8m.

But you might as well stick to windfoiling for light wind as sub 10 knot winging is really just holding your line and making sure your transitions are prefect. Which is rewarding in the right conditions like a warm flat water lake or Caribbean lagoon.

I'm specifically building a kalama inspired 6'6 for this purpose and the elusive flat water sup foil.

This is a good example from the only 20 year old I listen to.

Agree with above. Winging for me is fundamentally about wave riding. If it is sub 14kt and no swells, I'd rather kitefoil -- and you'd better off wind foiling. Same for going fast, your GPS tracks show you are going 50%+ faster that wingers on average. So if that's a goal, winging isn't optimal.

Where winging excels is in swell riding, as both kiting and windsurf your riding is hampered by the gear. Winging is the most freed up option...it is the closest you can get to tow in foil surfing, without a waverunner.

So.....the learning curve for me was surprising, as I thought winging would be a light wind pursuit and I'd kite when more windy. Turns out it is the opposite. Winging excels in high winds, as that's when the wind swells start.

Though I'm probably much better on the foil now than I was when I last windfoiled, it seems like, using the same board and foil, the 7.0 Flyer could get me foiling in 12g14 and the 6.5 Slick wing can get me going in the same 12g14. That's my lowest end, and for me under 12 knots and I'm stalling and coming off the foil and/or not making upwind progress. I seem to need power to climb up wind with the wing, so 14g sustained and I can climb up with the 6.5m wing. But that was probably the same with the 7.0 Flyer windfoiling. I think for me, the foil selection is key too. Hoping to get an axis or armstrong high aspect from Santa maybe, and I bet that would help my low end stall. The low aspect Hoverglide I use is really fun and curvy in 15-22 knots but I think high aspect with high surface area for my heavy a$$ is best all around. We'll see. And see you out there!

AJSpencer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:57 pm Though I'm probably much better on the foil now than I was when I last windfoiled, it seems like, using the same board and foil, the 7.0 Flyer could get me foiling in 12g14 and the 6.5 Slick wing can get me going in the same 12g14. That's my lowest end, and for me under 12 knots and I'm stalling and coming off the foil and/or not making upwind progress. I seem to need power to climb up wind with the wing, so 14g sustained and I can climb up with the 6.5m wing. But that was probably the same with the 7.0 Flyer windfoiling. I think for me, the foil selection is key too. Hoping to get an axis or armstrong high aspect from Santa maybe, and I bet that would help my low end stall. The low aspect Hoverglide I use is really fun and curvy in 15-22 knots but I think high aspect with high surface area for my heavy a$$ is best all around. We'll see. And see you out there!

I am waiting to see the local wingfoilers come close to the low end of the windfoilers. I truly hope it happens. There is one windfoiler in particular that can get going so soon in light wind, he might as well be doing a different sport than any other windfoiler at my spot. I am tempted by HA wings and getting the extra glide through my jibes (and tacks) to stay up on foil, wind or wing, but though I know it will come at a cost with more pumping needed in lightwind, something I do not enjoy. I'd consider an F-One Strike CWC, but I know from windsurfing and kiting, the law of diminishing returns kicks in with bigger gear and I think an 8m wing would only serve to take me downwind faster than a 6.

The definitive guide:

Great video and interesting to hear their comments! The only part I didn't agree with Wyatt on was the low wind shlog home disadvantage of a wingfoil. That's about the float in your board not sail vs wing. Just choose your board size appropriately for the wind reliability. In fact I've found it easier to do the hula with a wing than with a windsurf sail in sloppy post wind chop. It's also way easier to swim in with a wing if the wind completely disappears.
Twizz

tweezer wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:36 am Great video and interesting to hear their comments! The only part I didn't agree with Wyatt on was the low wind shlog home disadvantage of a wingfoil. That's about the float in your board not sail vs wing. Just choose your board size appropriately for the wind reliability. In fact I've found it easier to do the hula with a wing than with a windsurf sail in sloppy post wind chop. It's also way easier to swim in with a wing if the wind completely disappears.
Twizz

I disagree, I slip downwind way faster on a 125L board holding a wing than I do leaning against a sail on the same board.

elt wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:36 pm

I disagree, I slip downwind way faster on a 125L board holding a wing than I do leaning against a sail on the same board.

Yes great videos!!!!
Part of what Tweezer was saying was when the wind dies completely. What Tyson (or Wyatt?) said about windsurfers slogging in jumped out at me too. An attraction for me (hypothetical to this point personally) is the ability to prone paddle wing boards either towing the wing or holding them with your feet out of the water. When there was 0 knots of breeze I've seen people with wings paddle in from way out in the same time I took to cover a few 10s of metres swimming a windfoil to the beach with the sail in the water (of course that may say something about my strength and fitness ). I've seen people prone paddle wings straight into the wind to get through shore break, not something a windfoil can ever do, which isn't a safety thing but also where wings may have the edge over windsurfers.

BOth of those are great vids! Thanks!

elt: I would have to guess you're on a windsurf foilboard or supfoil board with the mast further further back relative to your contact points (knees, or feet). So when kneeling or standing on a board in less than 6 knots the mast is constantly trying to point you downwind. The newer wingboard shapes with forward tracks and sharper rails/bevels cut upwind with a daggerboard-like effect.

In a winging standing slog with just enough wind for movement, but not enough to foil (so 3-6kn), it's more of a twist and push back on the wing, vs lean. And although it's slow, the angle of my board points more upwind than when on foil. I think if you can lean against a windsurf sail then there's enough wind to foil?

Back to the original question: Yesterday I tested the sabfoil 800 winging on a 4m wing. I got it off the water with about the same effort I would have needed on the sabfoil 2100 a year ago in the same conditions. So I guarantee, no matter what gear you start with, Bobson, unless you're willing to dedicate some time to adapting to the balance and timing of a wingfoil setup, there's no chance you'll touch the bottom end of your windfoil.... But I can