MF4. Just for perspective look at http://www.bigwavedave.ca/gallery/displ ... at=0&pos=0 (From: "Trends, Rhythms, and Aberrations in Global Climate 65 Ma to Present
686 27 APRIL 2001 VOL 292 SCIENCE"). The Milankovitch_cycles plot (see previous messages in this thread) is in the first quarter of the first tick on the left hand axis (400,000 yrs) and represents about a quarter of the time people types have been on the earth. Somehow the world survived with a temperature 12 C (overall) higher than now and keep in mind that the T increase over the past 1000 years is about a degree or so. It was probably pretty grim at times though. Corals have died off a couple of times ... but whales appeared ... we've had a few ice ages .. but people (homonids) appeared!

I have no message. It's just that it gives you a completely different perspective to the 1000 yr hockeystick one ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy ).

None of this has anything to do with windsurfing so I should quit posting on this thread I think, and get out on the water.

i dont think theres any doubt the planet will survive temp change as it has in the past the question is will we make it as a species and how much misery might we incur. My feeling is such a house of cards has been built up by mankind we could be in for some trouble.

anyway i might have a solution. a device, a box if you will that sucks the excess CO2 from the atmosphere/ Its powered by homeless people riding bikes or something. anyway out one end it emits fresh lightly pine scented O2 and out the other side it extrudes carbon in the form of 100% carbon rdm masts. If i can just think of a good name maybe i can get some investors lined up.

I would call it A TREE! Well, you would get a wood mast not RDM but it's close ... and it works without a homeless person ... so it's not exploitation!

I heard on the radio this morning that a Canadian city has banned the use of plastic bags, a great idea. Apparently there is enough petrolium involved with 14 bags to drive a car one mile. I have my own re-usable bag, you should to!

hmmm, I've got a re-usable bag....I'm just not allowed to use it anymore

14 bags per mile: is that about 9 bags per km then? Sorry, in metric it should be 900 bags per 100 km.

I know of other information not considered in the papers that suggests the last few decades have been warmer than anything in the last 8,000 years or so. Artifacts (and some human bodies) are melting out of ice patches in Europe and BC/Yukon. In the case of the Yukon, darts (feathered spears used with an atlatl) that are up to 8,000 years old are being found in ice patches; these are particularly stable snow/ice fields that only occur in a few areas. Caribou and other big game like to hang out on hot summer days at these spots and are then easy to hunt. Sometimes just the stone points are found, for if the spears are exposed on the surface more than a few months without being found, the wood and feathers rots away leaving just the stone. THese things are surfacing because the ice that has been there through previous warm spells like the Medieval Warm Period hadn't been enough to melt them. But tHey are melting now - and very quickly. Thats just one spot, but the same seems to be happening all over.

Oetsi the "Iceman" in the Alps, and the less well known, Kwaday Dan Sinchi from NW BC are two humans recently thawed from ice. In the news last week was the very last tropical glacier, in Peru, is expected to be completely gone within 10 years. I bet it has loads of interesting artifacts coming out - but probably there isn't anyone to find/report them.

This should make a good topic for fireside arguements over been at Nitinat!

This story was in the National Post today. It is about the famous polar bear photo used by Gore in his film.

Gore pays for photo after Canada didn't
Environment Canada wrongfully claimed credit for polar bear Image
Joseph Brean, National Post
Published: Friday, March 23, 2007

A copy of the photo can be seen at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

Please note the comment from the photographer below:

"You have to keep in mind that the bears are not in danger at all. It was, if you will, their playground for 15 minutes, you know what I mean? This is a perfect picture for climate change, in a way, because you have the impression they are in the middle of the ocean and they are going to die, with a Coke in their hands. But they were not that far from the coast, and it was possible for them to swim... They are still alive and having fun."

BTW. "A leading Canadian authority on polar bears, Mitch Taylor, said: "We’re seeing an increase in bears that’s really unprecedented, and in places where we’re seeing a decrease in the population it’s from hunting, not from climate change." Mr Taylor estimates that during the past decade, the Canadian polar bear population has increased by 25 per cent - from 12,000 to 15,000 bears."

Having to do with glaciers melting, in about 1400 the earth entered a 450 year long period that has been called, the little ice age. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age . During that time glaciation increased quite dramatically in many places in the world. This followed a warm period from 1000 to about 1300 when grapes were grown in northern England. The retreat of glaciers now is the natural recovery from the effects of the little ice age. Kilimanjaro? The extent of glaciation has fluctuated for thousands of years in east Africa from no coverage to heavy coverage. The snows on Kilimanjaro are not just related to temperature but also precipitation. That region is currently experiencing very arid conditions. I can email "Chronology of Quaternary glaciations in East Africa, Earth and Planetary Science Letters, Volume 177, Issues 1-2 , 15 April 2000, Pages 23-42" if you want to read about it.

Sure glaciers melt some years and build up others. The point is, they've never melted so much in the last 8,000 years. The Medieval Warm Period undoubtedly melted parts of these ice patches, but most of the layers formed 8,000 years ago (probably after the very warm Hypsithermal Period) stayed intact - but they are melting now.

And while polar bears may have increased on the short term, its the long-term outlook that isn't good. Sure they can swim for dozens or maybe even hundreds of km if they have to; but they need ice to hunt seals, and the seals need ice to whelp. Dramatic shrinkage of arctic ice would cut the numbers of their main prey species and make it difficult to hunt.

More on polar bears. I actually love the animals. They grace our $2 coin and are magnificent beasts. They live in a harsh environment and survive.

I dislike the way that Gore uses them as a symbol, mine canaries, to bolster his (egotistical) occasionally misinformed road show about climate change.

Here is a somewhat balanced article about polar bears and climate change.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp? ... 0222a.html

Quote: "The polar bear drowning myth is typical of the deceit practiced by many global warming alarmists," he said. "Polar bears are very strong swimmers and have been documented swimming more than 60 miles without interruption."

I haven't seen "An awkward truth" so I don't know the context of the original rankle! Guess I'll have to see it soon!

so youre saying its not only the sea lions we need to watch for?

to me the whole argument is misplaced....it's not about whether the warming is caused by our pollution and abuse of the environment....to me it's about time we curb ourselves on that front, esp NA, Europe who have had all the means/time to but haven't bothered. Heaven forbid..... the profit margin.........

Here is another point: Buy more used stuff, don't feel compelled to compete with the Jones's and drive the SUV, hopefully it will come into vogue to have the ugliest, oldest stuff at some point.

I don't think I've ever bought anything of consequence NEW in my life, including windsurfing equipment. Most of that is because I'm cheap AND broke but a lot of it has to do with my innate sense that you need to use stuff up fully and not throw it out, whatever that is.

You are correct KUS. The benefit of Gores' movie is that it has drawn attention to the reckless consumption of oil by the developed world. Finally we are seeing governments offer incentives for people to buy fuel efficient vehicles at the expense of gas guzzlers. Almost every part of a windsurfer, sail, and kite is derived from petroleum. That highlights what a precious synthetic resource oil is. Someday people will look back and be appalled that "we" were so wasteful with oil.

Reuse, refill, and recycle is a great mantra KUS.

See you at the beach this summer.

Guys and gals,
I have just scanned through this thread and am very happy to know more and more people are interested in the subject matter. It can be oh so depressing watching the news, listening to our PM, reading reports, etc. but the handiest thing of all is that you can do your little bit and at least be happy with that to start with. The more you can do, the more you'll tell your friends, the more they will likely do, and society begins to change its mindset and current habits of consumption.

I too am shocked at how seemingly inept so many of our fellow citizens are at caring for their surroundings. I know there's hope for a vast and relatively rapid improvement though. Remember the 1 tonne challenge? Well I put myself through and came out WAY below the average household (granted I only live with a roommate and in a condo, but so do millions of other Canadians). I also don't really consider myself to have done anything exceptional either. I'm sure many of you are also way ahead of the game, apparently it doesn't take much. The good thing is we can be great examples for those around us and help convert our friends.

I recently took up vermicomposting (worm based). It only requires a storage bin of moderate size - I keep mine in the parkade in the end of my parking spot, plenty of room with the car parked there too. Eventually, once you get your worm population up to size, they can chew through about 5L of food waste a week! Currently food waste makes up well over half of my garbage too! Also, the setup can be had for approximately $50 so nobody can really make the financial excuse here. The end result is lots of super enriched dirt that can be spread as great top dressing if you have a garden. The moisture that runs through the system (you have a drip pan in place) is usually diluted and used to water plants with extra nutrient goodies as well for any of those green thumbs out there. Anyway, it's an unbelievable way to cut down your waste by considerable amounts, and requires only a few minutes a day at the very most.

Boy, I sure like long posts!

Edit:

helpful links to anyone interested in vermicompost

http://www.allthingsorganic.com/

http://compost.bc.ca/

there is an entry on wikipedia too

This week Daily Planet is featuring climate change and what some are doing about it. http://www.discoverychannel.ca/reports/ ... px?aid=376