There are good kiters here but not at pkra level.I dont care who they are folliw the rules.

You're welcome Stephen. Happy to have said something. I'm not trying to tell everyone what to do but rather to create dialogue about an issues of aggression, because there are enough bullies in the world right now that we don't need to go to the beach and find them there too. I appreciate Stephen's open nature, ability to be reflective and critical.

One more question, why would the slower less proficient rider be expected to steer clear of the way more advanced, trick orientated professional rideR? This doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry there aren't more manners down in Oz. I like the way they spell though.

In my first few weeksof kiting I had many nasty incidents with more experienced kiters and windsurfers that simply charged fully knowing that they were way too close to a beginner and often made some outrageous comments or swore , even though the beginner myself was way out of control. I am an experienced kiter now and practise defensive kiting in other words if there is an obvious beginner you keep a safe distance from him , We all had to learn however as in driving there are idiots out there that never learn and have no concept of common sense and of course the end result of all this animosity and bad attitude are kite tangles, accidents , arguments , and so many very experienced kiters have jumped when they are upwind of me fully knowing that I am headed in there direction and knowing that they will drift into my path , they never stop and they never learn until they end up f#$$$ing up big time and end up with an injury. I have watched four ocassions in La Ventana when guys have launched big jumps right at the beach and messed up and broke ribs , arms , and ankles right in front of me .How much fun is that, I like to show off at a safe distance from others and obstacles knowing that the landing in the sea is softer than the reef crash, so there you go I am kiting out in Watson Land away from the madding crowd

I dont get it and dont believe in it either. Not because someone is less good of a rider that he has to steer away... It is more about how new you are to a spot. Why the new guy should have priority? If I go to Italy, Thailand, Mexico, other parts in Canada or anywhere else, Ill take whatever spot left instead of trying to "fight for a spot" in the busy area or not... Im the new guy to a new spot, doesnt matter how good or bad the person is, I wont steal their spot. (even if I was a good rider)

Lets say that 3 or 4 persons have been kiteboarding at cook st regularly for the past 10 years in their own little area/tack where they always kiteboard, session after session, year after year... An "unwritten rule" develop and everybody respect it (they now have their own spot). One day someone try to push these guys out of their tack which end by them hitting the guy kite with their own kite... Well, why this new guy should be stealing their spot????????????? There is so much water space anyway. I believe its not how good someone is but how long he/she has been kiteboarding to a location. You have been kiteboarding for the past 12 years and move to a new location? Sucks for you but you shouldnt push away people from their "tack" or "spot" no matter how good you are and/or how bad they are. (when there is that much water space).

It doesnt matter how long you kite for Ian NO ONE! Owns the ocean. if its my right away i take it no matter what country your from.

--Nervemind I just saw that the question was about in pkra level training zones the pipeline type surfing rules apply-- Not on the island

--Nervemind I just saw that the question was about in pkra level training zones the pipeline type surfing rules apply-- Not on the island

But will let this post here because it still regards "etiquette" and verbal abuse/violence treat. I understand Nimpkish Bill lost of temper and the verbal abuse agaisnt one that is doing huge tricks very close to others.

Some example:

- Super Dave and 240 are kiting their ~ 250 meters tack back and forth, near the launching area since the last ?? + years. No they don't own the ocean, but everybody respect this and kiteboard either above or below them, no one argue about it, no one try to push them out of their tack/area. Am I or anyone else for that matter going to ride 5 meter downwind of SuperDave and complain afterwards that he is doing tricks very close to me/us? NO

- Mark 2 dog always (often) kiteboard the same area / tack at Nitinaht Lake since the last ??? years, no one try to push him away, everybody respect this.

Too many people to list but here is usually how it goes:
Where 57Palm tack is at cook street usually? About 20m upwind of the launching area. Nimpkish Bill is close by also. Billy & Marty are usually downind & upwind of SuperDave.
Watson is often playing in the wave from the stair bricks to the point and come back upwind to re do again. Todd, Ned are often upwind of launching area.
Larry is way out, sometimes by the land near the point or over the breakwater
When Scott Barnes and Globe comes they usually kite right below or above SuperDave spot. Collin,Ryan,Marty, BA,Steven, Dane peacefully share all over the place, I am usually near the brick stairs, etc... etc...etc...

Now, more people gets in, the busy area gets busier (where we launch and land). There is often no argue and everyone share the space peacefully. Reuben Todd Ned BA etc..etc...etc.. Its a Saturday and it gets even busier, lets say that "ANYONE" is tired of moving downwind because a new guy is trying to get into that small area/tack that he or she have been kiteboarding since the last 2 hours, what happen then?

You have 2 people who wants to share the same ~200m tack? One say: Fuck it I am staying here this time, the other one for some reason say: I want this spot, I got push downwind because there is too many people so I push this guy downwind. They can both share the space and it will be less fun for them but if the new guy (good or bad) crash in front of Nimpkish Bill or "ANYONE" multiple times, well I understand Nimpkish or ANYONE to lose their temper over it, if its what it takes for people to be considerate to others well so be it. Why should Nimpkish go somewhere else and not the other way around? Or if the new guy do huge tricks very close to the others, why should the others move away?

Lets say Larry is kiteboarding near the Point itself, back and forth for the last 15 minutes. Will I go in "his tack" because "nobody owns the ocean"?
Of course not, he was there before. There is so much place, why should I go ruin his fun??? Because "nobody owns the ocean" ??? I know you dont do this Ryan.

Hopefully pkra pipelines rules wont apply here for normal riding:

"Hey, I do double kiteloop, finish third in the amateur freestyle competition in Mexico 2 years ago, you dont even do kiteloop yet and I am a way better kiter than you are. Move away from that tack you have been riding since the last 3 hours/or the last 7 years, I am now kiteboarding here, I'll practice new tricks very close to you and sometimes crash in front of you all the time. You can stay but you wont have fun at all"

But this one make sense: Hey I have been riding in that small tack far from everyone and the launching area since this morning (3 hours ago), I am not bothering everyone. Why are you trying to push me away from that tack now?

I now understand when local/regular people use verbal treat agaisnt a new guy that endanger their safety and the safety of others by doing tricks too close from them or crash too many times in their "tack". If that person doesnt have the common sense/being considerate to others in a new location I dont believe that a small talk on the beach without verbal abuse will do anything.

Ian the idea that people get priority treatment based on how long they have been kiting at a spot leads to conflict. The new people who by this logic have less rights and need to respect a bunch of unwritten rules they don't know inevitably get into trouble.

If someone as been riding the same 200m tack for 10yrs and can't cope with a new person riding there on a given day that's not the new person's fault or problem.

I've been kiting at the same spots for 4yrs now. There are lots of folks newer than me at those launches. It would never occur to me that I deserve priority because I've got 4 years of seniority on them.

I do expect people to launch/land safely and follow the right of way rules on the water. Beyond that live and let live.

I've had to leave the area I was kiting because some new kiters were flailing about. I remember those days in my learning curve and I'm not going to freak out on them when I can blast upwind and find a new spot in 30 seconds.

I am not talking of a passing by your tack or kiting for a 5-10 minutes in your tack having fun or difficulty. Just if you have been kiteboarding the same tack for 3 hours at cook street, nobody bothers you than a new guy (experience or not) comes in and really invade the tack you have been riding for 10+ minutes and wont back off, he really wants that spot. You will more than likely move away and find a new spot, and I'll do the same.

But what if that day you dont feel like moving?

Who is in the wrong??? Is it you or him? I think that it is him.

I undertsand but disagree with you on this one (And like you Ill just find another spot to ride, I dont think I deserve priority because I get 4 years on someone) -->

If someone as been riding the same 200m tack for 10yrs and can't cope with a new person riding there on a given day that's not the new person's fault or problem.

Well it is not the old person's fault either. Both riders are not like most of us and they dont want to move away... They both cant cope with another one kiting in that 200m tack.

Who is at fault? The old guy (that kiteboard 10 years the same small 200m tack with 95%+++ of the locals respecting his tack) or the new guy (that want this spot and also cant cope that the old guy is riding that spot).? To me it is the new guy fault and whatever the old guy do to the new guy I'll agree with. (well to a certain point)

this thread has crossed over a few.. racing rules / Nitinat Rules being one where I raised the question of unwrittend rules and ROW rules...

By far the ROW rules should be held up high to avoid conflict.. however, when sailing a boat in a race you suffer a penalty by doing turns when having broken a rule... you cant really do that in rec kiteboarding nor would you.

Kus had issues with the sailing rules being applied to Wsurfers and Kboarders but either way you look at it you are a vessel underway by sail... nobody should be above these ROW rules on the water regardless of their experience. When crossing over all these ROW rules/ unwritten rules / respectful rules / etc... it gets to the point of wearing a helmet / life jacket /mouthgaurd everywhere we go... how about we live enjoying the winds we are blessed with on V Island.

and........

DONT BE A DICK BRO.

Teabag wrote:
But what if that day you dont feel like moving?

Who is in the wrong??? Is it you or him? I think that it is him.

If you don't hit each other and you are just riding in the same area nobody is in the wrong. You might prefer to have that area to yourself and perhaps the other guy is thinking the same thing. That doesn't make either guy wrong or right.

If you have just been kiting the same spot for 3hrs maybe it's time to try something else and give other folks a shot at it?

abetanzo wrote:Kus had issues with the sailing rules being applied to Wsurfers and Kboarders but either way you look at it you are a vessel underway by sail...

hmm, yeah, that was related to mobility and speed and letting the other guy have a wave too or not holding my course and risk collision just cuz I feel I am right.....for me it's all about the wave or hit but....I am starting to understand why I have had some not so great wave riding interactions with some ....SOME....kiters if they think they can "own" a particular set of tacks Holy crap....WTF does that fit in Maybe on a pond....but even there...I generally know what people around me want to do, if 240/Sdave/Sam/WhatsOn hits the reef and I am right behind, I give opportunity for him to do his thing but expect his ass to move on and let me have a go....that works well, or it better work If I get tired of waiting for them or in line or think I can get a better ride without traffic somewhere else, well, guess what The other thing that strikes me of course is the huge amount of space kiteboarders need in comparison.....kinda like a snowboarder using up a whole face with two turns where fifteen skiers could have enjoyed riding all afternoon....but that's another story
I see Agro developing, it's too bad. Social intervention is required where people can clear the air, not sure if this site is enough. You guys need a referee

smartang wrote:That would be a hilarious fight. Two guys with numb hands and feet, totally exhausted from riding and wearing 6mm of rubber, impact vests, helmets and gloves. Throw in a couple of mouth guards and I think we've got a pretty safe way to solve disputes. Oh and they really have to pee.

that's really funny BTW

KUS wrote:...
I see Agro developing, it's too bad. Social intervention is required where people can clear the air...

Agreed
Maybe its just me, but some of the points in here are starting to sound quite a bit like the territorial "locals" out at JR/Sombrio in the surf?

These threads seem to fill up whenever we are starved for wind. I'm with abetanzo on this one. The 'rules of the road' have evolved to prevent anarchy. AGRO is silly & not in my vocabulary

I Agree