Rigging and IMCS tests?

C36 · Post by **C36** » Tue May 26, 2015 3:49 pm

windoctor wrote:T,

You can always post shots of your rigged sails to show twist, draft profile, etc. Then we can armchair tune your sails for you.

+1 That is a very good idea. You should take WD up on his offer.

This stuff really only starts to become an issue when 'something just doesn't feel right' and your not do happy (or there isn't enough wind to keep us on the water). In the end a LOT of it is personal preference (as Kus mentioned, even down to different conditions/situations). I am sharing my ideas in the spirit of learning from each other (so please don't take my responses as arguing).

nanmoo wrote:I run my 5.2 QU4D on a 370 with a 38 extension, and I also run it on a 400 with zero extension if I happen to be packing that mast around. I am no lightweight but I honestly I can't really tell much of a difference. Perhaps I am not picky enough.

Interesting that.

The sail might be more rangy than most (able to rig comfortably on different masts); the design specs on your two masts might not be that different; or your masts might might not be what is spec'd resulting in your masts being 'similar' (that was the case with my old gear - they varied wildly from spec). If you are happy with performance on both masts, count yourself lucky! You've got options (and back-up).

nanmoo wrote:That said, when I used to have the cheap 60% carbon masts in my Fires, it sucked compared to when I switched to the higher carbon hot rods. This leads me to believe it is much, much more about the mast and less about the extension...

I would totally agree with that - mast is UBER important - right mast for the sail (bend curve, stiffness) and higher carbon content can give you great increase in performance and handling (more responsive, better balance, lighter in the hands).

nanmoo wrote:...which makes sense given that even at 38 cm you are less than 10% of the total luff vs. 90% for whatever mast you are using. Presumably if that is relative then you can only affect the feel by the same proportion.

I think your likely right, the mast extension is likely modest factor, but even if the length is 10%, the affect could be larger as changing the overall bend curve of the mast could change the tension in areas of the sail some distance way from the extension itself (luff pocket draft and leech tension come to mind).

KUS wrote: I was surprised to see the rigging guidelines for Ezzy's of KC's sail where it calls for 2+" for high winds......I usually run zero to 1/2 inch on all my sails, just keep downhauling....once u maxed on that, I go to the smaller sail

more force 4 wrote:An Ezzy guru at the Gorge (can't remember his name, older guy) told me that the downhaul was approximate setting, but that almost all adjustment on most Ezzys now was by the outhaul.

That rings true with my experience with SE's and Panthers, but the newer four batten Elites seem to be more sensitive to downhaul tension and seem to have more tuning range (lighter downhaul required to extract more bottom end out of the sail).

KUS wrote:was he driving a white van with an Ezzy logo interesting, that would support the soft mast business, certainly no point in mega downhauling a noodle....but there is still the three top panel settings adjustment I note on the sails so don't think that's entirely true....but what do I know

NP's (NR's, World Cup Race, and MK III through RS-1's) seemed to like being over downhauled (even with softer flex-top mast) when well powered to overpowered (some of these sails were even rigged with negitive outhaul and looked like they had been over-cooked in a microwave when lying on the beach with no wind load), Ezzy SE's and Panthers not so much (haven't tried over downhauling Elites as they are pretty stable without going there). I would think a lot of it may have to do with the design of the sail as much or more than mast bend curve it has been designed for/run on. It's also important to remember that modern sails now have way more range than older sails did, how this is done likely varies greatly brand to brand, so best to follow manufacturers recommendations until you find a feel that you like.

Hope that is understandable and worthy of some considertation.

more force 4 · Post by **more force 4** » Tue May 26, 2015 5:44 pm

KUS wrote:but there is still the three top panel settings adjustment I note on the sails so don't think that's entirely true....but what do I know

No, he of course did go over the three settings they mark on the top panel, but he said if you found you were over/under, rather than adjusting downhaul, adjust outhaul first, and that is how they (SEs) were designed. THe amount and position of draft could be controlled by the outhaul over a wide range of downhaul settings and get very nearly the same result.

winddude · Post by **winddude** » Wed May 27, 2015 12:58 pm

more force 4 wrote:
KUS wrote:but there is still the three top panel settings adjustment I note on the sails so don't think that's entirely true....but what do I know
No, he of course did go over the three settings they mark on the top panel, but he said if you found you were over/under, rather than adjusting downhaul, adjust outhaul first, and that is how they (SEs) were designed. THe amount and position of draft could be controlled by the outhaul over a wide range of downhaul settings and get very nearly the same result.

more down haul de-powers the sail by making more leach twist, de-powering the top of the sail . More out haul flattens the sail, creating less low end power but moves the draft forward. This is normal across all sails, if you put more downhaul, you probably need to add more outhaul.

If ezzys require less downhaul tuning I have no idea :s but I usually think KPs ezzy rigs look like they have a looser leach then other sails.

abetanzo · Post by **abetanzo** » Wed May 27, 2015 3:23 pm

down haul can be called a cunningham but I personally like smart pig in the sailing world!!

winddoctor · Post by **winddoctor** » Wed May 27, 2015 4:26 pm

abetanzo wrote:down haul can be called a cunningham but I personally like smart pig in the sailing world!!

Ah, a cunning linguist you are!

KUS · Post by **KUS** » Wed May 27, 2015 6:07 pm

Personally I prefer a descriptive term, not some pet name someone came up with because they chugged 10 beers in 20 seconds or named after the guy that dropped the case breaking 10 beers

winddoctor wrote:Ah, a cunning linguist you are!

that too may abate, apparently he is married now

Adrian, you will soon need a new hobby! How about trying windsurfing?

abetanzo · Post by **abetanzo** » Fri May 29, 2015 9:07 am

sailors use downhaul but it's for the spinnaker pole! and these terms are from ages ago not from some random drunk Mark..us!! there is one rope on a boat everything else has a name! you could learn a lot!

maybe you should come out sailing one time when its less than 15knots! I bet you'd enjoy it! Zig Zag is always looking for angry drunk crew!

I'll try windsurfing when pigs fly! then it might actually be fun! it just never really looks like fun... especially in lighter winds! you can't really jump without crashing down hard! big waves sure look cool!

kites have made a huge change to sailing because you can maneuver your sail creating huge apparent wind and guess what it can catch you after a 30ft air!!! wow its so amazing!!

KUS · Post by **KUS** » Fri May 29, 2015 10:12 am

abetanzo wrote:..these terms are from ages ago not from some random drunk Mark..us!! ....maybe you should come out sailing one time when its less than 15knots! I bet you'd enjoy it! Zig Zag is always looking for angry drunk crew!!!

see, all in the same quote

I rest my case...gently so I don't break any

winddude · Post by **winddude** » Fri May 29, 2015 10:21 am

abetanzo wrote:sailors use downhaul but it's for the spinnaker pole! and these terms are from ages ago not from some random drunk Mark..us!! there is one rope on a boat everything else has a name! you could learn a lot!

maybe you should come out sailing one time when its less than 15knots! I bet you'd enjoy it! Zig Zag is always looking for angry drunk crew!

I'll try windsurfing when pigs fly! then it might actually be fun! it just never really looks like fun... especially in lighter winds! you can't really jump without crashing down hard! big waves sure look cool!

kites have made a huge change to sailing because you can maneuver your sail creating huge apparent wind and guess what it can catch you after a 30ft air!!! wow its so amazing!!

abetanzo · Post by **abetanzo** » Fri May 29, 2015 10:57 am

Thats funny!! Sorry to poke the bear wind dude maybe you gotta get out more... Oh wait you can't sail in anything less than 25knots! I know I can joke around with Markus but you really need to be shut up In person!! See ya on the beach

winddude · Post by **winddude** » Fri May 29, 2015 11:04 am

abetanzo wrote:Thats funny!! Sorry to poke the bear wind dude maybe you gotta get out more... Oh wait you can't sail in anything less than 25knots! I know I can joke around with Markus but you really need to be shut up In person!! See ya on the beach

haha, glad you enjoyed it, it's all good, yea "shut up and sail!"

KUS · Post by **KUS** » Fri May 29, 2015 12:36 pm

abetanzo wrote:See ya on the beach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4fWN6VvgKQ

love this community

abetanzo · Post by **abetanzo** » Fri May 29, 2015 2:02 pm

to be fair... didn't you learn something about boats?!!

downhaul main sail = Cunningham / smart pig! when dealing with a spinnaker downhaul is for the pole!

downhaul tensions the luff of a sail! tensioning the backstay=twisting the leech, flatting outhaul = less draft!!!

nanmoo · Post by **nanmoo** » Fri May 29, 2015 2:05 pm

Careful, Kus is a masterdebator and quite the cunninglinguist.

In other news I'm bringing my boat home tomorrow on it's trailer so I'll be dealing with that topping rope, cunning thingy and sheets that don't look like sheets to me.

Tyvealive · Post by **Tyvealive** » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:30 pm

After some experimenting with these masts, I realize that the times they don't sail great are when they're mismatched, bottoms with the wrong tops...didn't think it would make much of a difference but it seems to. No labels on any thing so its a bit tricky to get the correct ones matched, tossed some spray paint on there to help for next time...still wanna do the IMCS home test at some point.
Thanks for the tips guys,
Ty

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