MF4 - I disagree with you. The US government has been a paranoid war loving blood-letting bully for many decades, by choice not by doctrine. Read some more on US invasions. The regimes you mention were isolated in one country. The U.S. has ravaged or obliterated scores of countries. Who's the only country to ever drop Nukes? e.g. Read about cluster bombs in Laos, a peace loving nation. The list goes on ...

Look at the aftermath of 9-11. The clean up and emergency workers who are lethally ill cant even get disability insurance or government compensation even after Bush promised it. They're like the Kurds were to Saddam. Bush is letting them die slowly.

The Iraqi invasion has created millions of refugees and killed 100,000s of innocent Iraqi civilians. No rebuilding of Iraq's infrastructure as was promised either.

Cheney now wants to Nuke Iran.

Don't forget that there was no justification to invade Iraq other than oil. All the justifications were lies and propaganda.

And the U.S. was the only hold out on Kyoto. They could go down as the country that fried the planet.

All in all, who cares if 9-11 was an inside job. It would pale in comparison to the misery the U.S. creates on a daily basis.

All in all, who cares if 9-11 was an inside job. It would pale in comparison to the misery the U.S. creates on a daily basis.

well said.

Jeeps, Now I'm wasting time on this dumb thing.

Awesome - here's a stinger. the new lease owner won $7 Billion in insurance - wowza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEuJimaumW4


BBC Reported Building 7 Collapse 20 Minutes Before It Fell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwOT29gbc

Also don't forget that of the official 19 plane hijackers, 5 or 6 of them are still alive. Duh ...

Mattdog wrote:MF4 - I disagree with you. The US government has been a paranoid war loving blood-letting bully for many decades,

Never disagreed with this. What I was disagreeing with was the statement that they were the greatest evil in the world. But they haven't been as brutal as the others I mentioned; maybe a bit of Iron Fist at the beginning of the Iraq occupation combined with a plan as well thought out as the defeat of the Iraq forces instead of allowing or even encouraging chaos and looting would have actually changed what happened in Iraq. I remember being slack-jawed in disbelief as US generals commented on the looting of Baghdad by the lowlifes "These boys have put up with Saddam for decades. They need to cut loose a bit" as the oxcarts piled high with beauracrat's desks and light fixtures went trotting by, realizing that they had no plan whatsoever (except for the oil) after they'd won the conventional war.

I remember very well Granada and Chile and Panama and Nicaragua and El Salvador and Guatemaula and The Phillipinnes and a host of other places where the US either directly invaded or the CIA pulled puppet strings. I still say the moral climate of the US leadership is worse today than in past decades.

And the whole point of all the anti-conspiracy theory posters here is that there is more than enough real evil perpetrated by the US to not waste time on wacky conspiracy theories.

As for dropping atomic weapons, there is the arguement that it was the lesser of two evils - a conventional ground invasion of the main islands would have cost countless more Japanese, let alone Allied lives. But they could have demonstrated the bomb's potential on some uninhabited mountainsides first. The sad thing is that the Japanese survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings have to live secretly to avoid shunning and ostracism by the rest of Japanese society even today.

"I still say the moral climate of the US leadership is worse today than in past decades. "

Well perhaps this only true because they have more money to throw at evil pursuits than ever before with the Fed printing phantom dollars to support the whole Ponzi scheme.

Remember Bush's grandaddy and IBM financed the Nazi's. That extreme echelon of evil runs in his family. I would guess other oligarchies like the Rockefeller's are behind many of the things happening now. I heard they have orchestrated/influenced a good deal of activity ... Who knows ...

the more you or anyone else checks into this...the more you will see..common sense, which by the way is not so common will lead you, guide you all...god help us all tomorrow..keeping my fingers crossed it does'nt happen, yes i drove kissenger personnally a couple of times, and many others, hardcore, yes, there was no partition, so i heard everything, but that was a long time ago, but you get the gist of it..yes, i've become a bit of a wacho on here, but for good reason....my grandfather, taught me well, he was one of the people that worked on the enigma code at cambridge, ..i'm sorry if you people think i'm nuts.... have, you victorians noticed how the contrails/ chemtrails have stopped? now we have summer, was it because of crabmans post? or was it because, someone else is watching big wave dave.. and was worried how far and where that post would go...yes it's that serious...lung problems anyone ?????? even though you don't smoke..look to the sky...however i must thank who ever pushed the stop button/command button to give us this wonderful summer weather we are so long over due for...911 happened, with prior knowledge, whether or not you believe that they...allowed it to happen for their own benefit..or it was a cia/bush job from the start..use your own magnifying glass, watch as many videos on you tube as you can of the towers coming down, listen to the ny firefighters radio dialogue the scientists that are not gov't employees... people from MIT etc..understand that even though we live in canada, our news is sensored, tailored, and understand this.. if we the people do not stand up now, and i mean now, not next week or month, we the people will have "no say" in what goes on.. the military/industrial complex, witness ..blackwater..private military..same thing..it's all the same thing..people kept from returning to their houses in new orleans by blackwater employees,..by the same clad in black armed thugs.. what happened there? where has all of that money gone ? And what is going to happen when the super storms of this winter hit ?....i'm listening to some wonderful portuguese music in the background as i type this..my ony answer...is.. revolution..but the only problem is....90% of the population is brainwashed...in nord america anyway...did you know that ....anyway i could go on and on for ever...and if my car does'nt blow up tomorrow morning when i open the door to go to work i will post again..cheers and godnight...yes godnight...because there is a god..and the axxis of evil is right next door... goodnite.. tim xox

MF4 -

"But distinguishing between plausible alternates and plain crap is usually not too hard"

Pretty strong statement. True enough the "Babies living on the Titanic" headlines does not require reading of the story, but when several observations are made that are inconsistent with the official version one should not easily pass judgment. Not too long ago statements that WTC7 was pulled was conspiracy crap. Now the leaseholder confirms it.
A common problem is, that alternate explanations are easily labeled "conspiracy" to discredit them. Some "conspiracy theories" might never be validated because the facts never surface. It should be interesting what surfaces with the release of the JFK files one day.
I can't remember much of a conspiracy version when Reagan was shot. I wonder why...

Um. Yeah. Jim Morrison is really still alive too. The CIA was involved in his apparent death. Commercial interests interfered with Morrisons spiritual transmigration and the CIA covered it up. He didn't drown in a bathtub in Paris. Damn Americans. They are to blame for the loss of the Doors.

See, here it is on internet. It must be true.

http://www.carpenoctem.tv/cons/lizard.html

foilboy wrote:Not too long ago statements that WTC7 was pulled was conspiracy crap. Now the leaseholder confirms it.

Please. Where does Silverstein ever "confirm" that WTC7 was demolished? Since you quote this as fact, show me it. I want a source, not hearsay!

People need to learn to not take nebulus statements as evidence supporting their position. It seems the only reason Silverstein is credited with confirming a demolition is because he uses the phrase "pull it" which in the context he uses it (did you watch that video?) appears to refer to removing firefighters from danger and letting the WTC7 burn.

Lets keep hearsay out of this, ok?

Also:

Kite Kook wrote:

All in all, who cares if 9-11 was an inside job. It would pale in comparison to the misery the U.S. creates on a daily basis.

well said.

I disagree strongly Kite Kook. I care very much because if we the people can't exercise common sense and good judgement in evaluating simple topics like 9-11 conspiracy theories, we certainly won't be able to do so in politics and won't be able to change the foreign policies causing the misery the U.S. and others DO create on a daily basis.

Lack of critical thinking skills can lead to a terrible foreign policy just as quickly as to a belief in 9-11 conspiracy theories. It just depends on ones pre-existing political leanings, so I'll criticise both.

Mattdog wrote: Also don't forget that of the official 19 plane hijackers, 5 or 6 of them are still alive. Duh ...

Can you back this up Mattdog, or is it more hearsay?

I find that BBC thing discussing the collapse before it happened very strange. Not sure what to think about it and I couldn't find anything useful online in my brief search, however...

Do news channels "green screen" things? Perhaps the reporter is live, but not the footage behind her. She did manage to find a great backdrop to her reporting fairly quickly.
Remember the talk on CNN and others that morning about car bombs in the basement of the WTC? Perhaps wrongly discussing the collapse of another building only became notable when the building actually did collapse? Would the same have happened for the car bomb reports?
Is it really reasonable to think that after orchestrating a huge demolition and keeping it secret, the government would find it necessary to prep news channels to report an event that would be happening in 20 minutes regardless? I don't see the logic in that at all.

Schooled wrote:

Lack of critical thinking skills can lead to a terrible foreign policy just as quickly as to a belief in 9-11 conspiracy theories. It just depends on ones pre-existing political leanings, so I'll criticise both.

Dismissal of conspiracy theories out of hand simply because they are labelled 'conspiracy' theories demonstrates perfectly a lack of critical thinking skills, and is intellectually the equivalent of accepting said theories blindly.

Some rather far-fetched conspiracy theories end up being proven true year later (e.g, the GM, Firestone and Standard Oil conspiring to buy up rail based electric transit (streetcars) and replace them with buses in the 40's - they were convicted and fined for collusion).

My point in agreeing with Mattdog was that 9/11 might eventually be proven to be an inside job, willful ignorance or simply a well-executed terrorist attack. Regardless of which it is, it pales in comparison to the other deeds the US has done. I am friends with many Chileans who remember 9/11 of '73 and who might argue the US involement in that lead eventually to more deaths than the attacks in NY.

It pays to remember - an open mind is en essential component of critical thinking.

Kite Kook wrote: Dismissal of conspiracy theories out of hand simply because they are labelled 'conspiracy' theories demonstrates perfectly a lack of critical thinking skills, and is intellectually the equivalent of accepting said theories blindly.

Very true. I'll keep it in mind, but don't count myself in that category.

The overthrow of Mosaddeg would be a very relevent one to add to your list of conspiracies proven true. Terrible how long a list it is.

Kite Kook wrote: My point in agreeing with Mattdog was that 9/11 might eventually be proven to be an inside job, willful ignorance or simply a well-executed terrorist attack. Regardless of which it is, it pales in comparison to the other deeds the US has done.

Ahh, in that case I misunderstood you, and I apologise for that. I thought you were saying you felt it didn't matter if the US was responsible or not for 9-11.

My comments on critical thinking skills and judgement weren't directed at you at all but rereading my post I realize it sure sounds like they were. Sorry. I'd actually agreed with your previous posts.

Kite Kook wrote: It pays to remember - an open mind is en essential component of critical thinking.

Yep, just not so open your brain falls out! - (Not directed at you Kite Kook!)

It seems the only reason Silverstein is credited with confirming a demolition is because he uses the phrase "pull it" which in the context he uses it (did you watch that video?) appears to refer to removing firefighters from danger and letting the WTC7 burn.

Schooled - When Silverstein said "pulled it" you think "it" refers to the firefighters? "They made the decision to pull and watched collapse" is what I heard him say in the video. Seems pretty stubborn to me to state that he meant the firefighters. Maybe it is my English deficiency, but "it", the firefighters? You just see what fits your worldview.

Lets keep hearsay out of this, ok?

How much more of a source do you want than the guys saying it on tape? You label this "hearsay"?

Schooled:

I do not think your study of the "laws of physics" has made you an expert on building collapse Colin. In fact such laws aren't directly useful here at all. What is useful, and seemingly lacking, is common sense.

I have never stated that I am an expert, I have stated that I am not "ignorant to the laws of physics". Ignorance is a lack of knowledge and I am confidant that I do not lack knowledge in the basic laws of physics. And you think that the laws of physics aren’t directly useful here at all??!! That makes me laugh.

What is useful, and seemingly lacking, is common sense.

I have great common sense.....ask anyone who knows me well (you do not). The study of physics is deeply engrained with common sense!

Any expert may be wrong from time to time, but when the vast majority of experts in a given field and in this case many fields hold a common opinion, and you are not an expert, you should admit their experience and knowledge and accept their judgment.

How can the vast majority of experts have fully educated opinions when the only investigation into the matter was conducted by the US government? And no, you are right, I am not an expert nor have I claimed to be one.

That is the case here. Other than a few exceptions, almost nobody with relevant experience appears to believe in 9-11 collapse conspiracy theories. Neither should you.

Don't tell me what I should and should not believe in, this is a matter which deserves serious attention from individuals with experience in the matter. No one involved in this forum has the complete "answer" or "truth".

Dismissal of conspiracy theories out of hand simply because they are labeled 'conspiracy' theories demonstrates perfectly a lack of critical thinking skills, and is intellectually the equivalent of accepting said theories blindly.

Very well said Paul, thank you!

I did not create this forum to raise a debate over the 911 issue, merely to start a conversation which may lead to some further investigation into the issue. Action must start from the grass roots on this issue. Just because some experts are at odds with each other over the issue does not mean that this is a "conspiracy theory". How are all of the experts properly informed?

All I want is for an independent, 3rd party, investigation to be carried out. I am not concerned whether this tragedy is any worse than ones committed by the US is the past I am just concerned with how the world’s most powerful democracy is run! SCARY

I have created a monster and am glad it got people talking about the subject however feel that none of us bring any light or resolution to the matter.

OVER & OUT

The big picture for me is this; when the Berlin wall came down, and the former USSR collapsed and lost its presence as a conventional military superpower, the mood of the world was trepidatious about the USA assuming a sole superpower position....(how GOOD can anyone with a guns intentions be, after all!?!) I think there was a hope that the USA would relieve itself of the past, and become the most significant of peacekeepers.

The worst case scenario would have been someone attacking the USA, in some way that would lead them to bring out the worst of their insecurities, which might bring them to insubstantially attack others....unfortunately this is what happened, the source of the attack still not being completely confirmed!

When you are the only elephant left in the ring, and you can't compromise your image, though it may be self created, even the smallest mouse must be crushed, including those who may, or may not, be hiding it. The geopolitical nightmare that we see in our frustrations now, was already there...its taken new form, and become more exposed to the individual, mainly through the internet (look where we are having this conversation). This may be the only GOOD that comes out of it all, whether conspiracy was involved in the origins of 911, or not.

Has anyone mentioned the Gulf of Tonkin....that apparently is Fact, and was the source of American involvement in vietnam...(they attacked themselves first as a provocation).